JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Are you assuming Connally saw the president getting hit then, PI?

Connally heard the shot that hit the President AFTER the President had actually been hit, and at a time when he himself had not been hit, and that, as he pointed out, means that they were definitely hit by separate bullets.

[FrankO]

Connally and his wife were quite definite that he was not hit by the same bullet as one that hit Kennedy.

Your argument is as much with him as it is with me.

Are you assuming Connally saw the president getting hit then, PI?

[FrankO]

* A bullet that magically curves to miss JFK, magically starts tumbling in midair, and magically curves again to hit Connally in the back.

If Connally was actually struck when he himself said he thought he was, then more magic was needed, Fiver. The bullet striking him followed a downward trajectory and slightly from Connally's right to left, while he held his hand & wrist above the point of exit and to the right of it.

[cobalt]

Not for the first time I discover I have spent time re-inventing the wheel.

The issue of the soda drink machine or machines has been covered by several others. The LG theorists claim that there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st floor near the rear stairs and this was the machine referred to by Jarman. Since several witnesses described going up to the second floor to use the cola machine inside the lunchroom it was wrongly assumed that only one machine was inside the TSBD. It has also been claimed that Buell Frazier (some years later) remembered the Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor being next to a refrigerator. If this is true then the WC missed an opportunity to undermine Oswald's reasons for being on the 2nd floor when confronted by Marrion Baker. Oswald had nothing in his hands according to either Baker or Truly and, devastatingly, was known to be a Dr. Pepper drinker! Case closed methinks.

Some claim that a Dr. Pepper machine is visible in photos of the 1st floor taken for the WC although I can't quite see that myself; it looks rather 'Badgeman' to my failing eyesight. And if there was a refrigerator on the 1st floor why did some workers leave their lunches on the window sill in the Domino Room?

[Joshua Rogan]

Surely the Dr. Pepper machine was in the lunch room on the 2^nd floor? Jarman is clearly very keen to disassociate himself from the Dr. Pepper bottle found on the 6th floor hence, I suspect, his mistake.

His mistake? The second floor lunch room contained a Coca Cola machine.

[cobalt]

''I was quoting FBI Agent James Bookhout - "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."'

Bookhout seems unaware that the lunch room and the domino room are two different places. Fiver seems confused as well. Harold Norman makes a similar slip in his WC testimony where he admits there was ‘someone else’ there. Coached witnesses often make these kind of mistakes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?
Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?
Mr. NORMAN. I can’t remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.
Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?
Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular clay we didn’t play that morning.
Mr. BALL. Why didn’t you play that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn’t nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

Junior Jarman seems similarly confused when recalling eating his lunch while walking around the 1^st floor.
Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone [on the 1st floor] and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building.
Surely the Dr. Pepper machine was in the lunch room on the 2^nd floor? Jarman is clearly very keen to disassociate himself from the Dr. Pepper bottle found on the 6th floor hence, I suspect, his mistake.

We don’t know which room Oswald claimed to have lunch in, how long he stayed in any one place and whether he even went outside for his customary stroll as stated by Shelley and Buell Frazier.

'"short" is hardly a detailed description.'

It's a pretty good description of a guy nicknamed 'Shorty' and a great deal more accurate than any ID witnesses of Oswald. The stumbling point remains: how did Oswald know that Jarman and Norman passed through the domino room shortly before the assassination?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I have never claimed there was a roll call. Neither did the Warren Commission.

I have pointed out that Oswald was the only person known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting, but left the building almost immediately afterwards.

How do you know that Oswald was known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Odio does claim to have met a Leopoldo on the day LHO left for Mexico. Odio said that Leopoldo was tall and unshaven.

Odio claimed to meet a man who was introduced to her as an ex-marine by the name of Leon Oswald.

Why would Hoover assume he couldn't get an exemption of mandatory retirement from JFK?

Because he knew JFK's intentions.

Why would Hoover assume that he absolutely could get an exemption of mandatory retirement from LBJ?

Because that was the deal they struck.

How could Hoover guarantee LBJ wouldn't revoke the exemption or just fire him?

The same way he knew JFK could not fire him.

How would Hoover guarantee whoever was elected in 1964 wouldn't revoke the exemption or just fire him?

He couldn't; but he could guarantee that JFK would not extend his tenure.

Why would Hoover assume exemption from retirement would be worth the risk of being executed for murder and treason, having his legacy and intended accomplishments destroyed, and the agency he had led for most of his adult life abolished?

Because no such risk existed.

The new President and the heads of the FBI and CIA were all in on the conspiracy, as must have been the head of the Secret Service.

The conspiracy could hardly fail.

That's not an answer.

How could the Conspiracy frame Oswald when they didn't even know what cities JFK was going to, let alone the parade routes?

They had a much better idea than Oswald as to what was likely to happen.

Don't tell me Oswald knew as much as LBJ about plans for Kennedy's schedule, whether it would include Dallas, what the likely route would be, and how the route could be changed so as to facilitate an assassination.

So you believe that the same Conspiracy that could forge documents, handwriting, print evidence, ballistics evidence, x-rays, autopsy reports, photographic evidence, and get dozens of people to support the lie couldn't do anything to remove the evidence that he visited the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico?

I would say that would have been difficult as well as unnecessary.

That makes no sense.

A Conspiracy can never be sure of succeeding.

The best way to make sure that the Conspiracy succeeds is to make sure that the best possible shooter with the best possible weapon is used, not a pack of bumblers that can't even hit the correct target over half the time.

Common sense tells you that having multiple shooters firing from different directions offered the best chance of success.

The best way to make sure that the Conspiracy succeeds is to have your cover story match the number and location of the weapons being fired. That way your don't have to forge any evidence or get any witnesses to back up a false story.

It seems as though you are arguing that evidence of mistakes made by the conspirators is to be treated as evidence that there was no conspiracy.

Of course they made mistakes, just as so many criminal enterprises do.

Shooting Connally was just one mistake and that is one of the reasons the Warren Commission lawyers had to come up with the SBT - a piece of practically-criminal invention to complement the original crime.

[Fiver]

And at this juncture, I politely draw your attention to the fact that you have never produced any evidence that a roll-call took place - the roll-call which, according to the Warren Commission, proved that Oswald was the only employee missing.

I have never claimed there was a roll call. Neither did the Warren Commission.

I have pointed out that Oswald was the only person known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting, but left the building almost immediately afterwards.

[Fiver]

An Oswald met Sylvia Odio in Dallas at a time when Oswald was supposedly either in Mexico or on his way there.

Odio does claim to have met a Leopoldo on the day LHO left for Mexico. Odio said that Leopoldo was tall and unshaven.

An extension of his tenure as Director of the FBI.

Why would Hoover assume he couldn't get an exemption of mandatory retirement from JFK?

Why would Hoover assume that he absolutely could get an exemption of mandatory retirement from LBJ?

How could Hoover guarantee LBJ wouldn't revoke the exemption or just fire him?

How would Hoover guarantee whoever was elected in 1964 wouldn't revoke the exemption or just fire him?

Why would Hoover assume exemption from retirement would be worth the risk of being executed for murder and treason, having his legacy and intended accomplishments destroyed, and the agency he had led for most of his adult life abolished?

Same reason they had two Oswalds in different places at the same time and also had someone impersonating Oswald who was obviously physically different and could not speak Russian.

That's not an answer.

How could the Conspiracy frame Oswald when they didn't even know what cities JFK was going to, let alone the parade routes?

I don't think they could have done that.

So you believe that the same Conspiracy that could forge documents, handwriting, print evidence, ballistics evidence, x-rays, autopsy reports, photographic evidence, and get dozens of people to support the lie couldn't do anything to remove the evidence that he visited the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico?

Because in order for the conspiracy to be sure of succeeding, multiple shooters were required.

That makes no sense.

A Conspiracy can never be sure of succeeding.

The best way to make sure that the Conspiracy succeeds is to make sure that the best possible shooter with the best possible weapon is used, not a pack of bumblers that can't even hit the correct target over half the time.

The best way to make sure that the Conspiracy succeeds is to have your cover story match the number and location of the weapons being fired. That way your don't have to forge any evidence or get any witnesses to back up a false story.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Your theory requires grossly incompetent assassins. Out of 6 (or more) shots only 3 of them hit the correct target and only one of them is fatal.

And these gross incompetents also have to enter, attack, and leave undetected while leaving no ejected shells, bullets, or bullet fragments.

I would not say only one shot was fatal.

There is strong evidence of two shots to the head.

In addition, two people were hit in the back and one in the throat.

Only one of the six shots missed altogether.


On the other hand, for Oswald alone to have been firing the shots requires one to believe that, after missing the vehicle altogether, and with the vehicle then further away, and with a defective scope, he was then able to defy the laws of both mathematics and anatomy by shooting Kennedy in the back about six inches below the neckline, at a downward angle, shooting Kennedy in the front of the neck, and shooting Connally - all with one bullet - and then hitting Kennedy twice in the head, also with one bullet.

How many people here actually believe that?

[Fiver]

I would like to know the locations of all the shooters, but I don't need to know them in order to know that there were multiple marksmen and Kennedy was not even shot in the back of the neck, and at least six shots were fired.

Your theory requires grossly incompetent assassins. Out of 6 (or more) shots only 3 of them hit the correct target and only one of them is fatal.

And these gross incompetents also have to enter, attack, and leave undetected while leaving no ejected shells, bullets, or bullet fragments.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Connally's initial impression was that there were multiple gunman or that there was a single shooter with an automatic rifle.

Connally also thought that there were only three shots over the course of 10 to 12 seconds and that all of the shots came from behind and from an elevation.

Connally also testified that he saw "people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children."

So your theory has:

* A bullet that is magically traveling so slowly that it barely penetrates JFK's back and then magically disappears.
* A bullet that magically curves in midair to miss Connally, curves again to strike JFK in the front of the throat, and then magically disappears.
* A bullet that magically curves to miss JFK, magically starts tumbling in midair, and magically curves again to hit Connally in the back.

And bullets don't throw people violently in any direction. Mythbusters proved that.

Connally and his wife were quite definite that he was not hit by the same bullet as one that hit Kennedy.

Your argument is as much with him as it is with me.

[Fiver]

According to Dr Humes' examination of the back wound, the bullet that hit Kennedy in the back did not penetrate far.

It could not, therefore, have exited the front of Kennedy's throat which, in any case, was - according to his own autopsy diagrams and FBI witnesses - about half a foot higher than the bullet hole.

The Warren Commission invented a neck wound and, without any precedent in the history of shootings anywhere, claimed that a bullet entering the back of the neck could exit the front of the neck, just as it claimed without any precedent that a shot fired from behind would throw someone violently backwards.

The fact that both Connally and his wife were definite that he was shot by a separate bullet, that according to his own account and a viewing of the Zapruder film he could not have been hit less than half a second after the 'Single' bullet was fired, and his own impression that there were multiple gunmen - remarkably similar to Kellerman's testimony - should settle the matter.

Connally's initial impression was that there were multiple gunman or that there was a single shooter with an automatic rifle.

Connally also thought that there were only three shots over the course of 10 to 12 seconds and that all of the shots came from behind and from an elevation.

Connally also testified that he saw "people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children."

So your theory has:

* A bullet that is magically traveling so slowly that it barely penetrates JFK's back and then magically disappears.
* A bullet that magically curves in midair to miss Connally, curves again to strike JFK in the front of the throat, and then magically disappears.
* A bullet that magically curves to miss JFK, magically starts tumbling in midair, and magically curves again to hit Connally in the back.

And bullets don't throw people violently in any direction. Mythbusters proved that.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Norman ate his luinch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Troy West said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Danny Acre said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Jack Dougherty said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.

Williams testified that he ate his lunch on the sixth floor, possibly as late as 12.15 p.m.

He didn't see Oswald.