JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Connolly said he didn't see the President but his wife said she turned and saw the President clutching his throat and then saw the reaction as the second bullet hit her husband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_Y3F8tDYg&ab_channel=HelmerReenberg

Cheers, George

Thanks George, I hadn't seen that one.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Connally heard the shot that hit the President AFTER the President had actually been hit, and at a time when he himself had not been hit, and that, as he pointed out, means that they were definitely hit by separate bullets.

I like George's response better, PI. More straight-forward and sticking to the testimony.

I've heard and read how Governor Connally told his story on various occasions, but I've never heard or read that he said he only heard the shot that hit the president AFTER he had actually been hit. What I did hear him say, was that he only heard the first and third shot, not the one that hit him.

[cobalt]

Cheers Joshua. I'm happy to follow the evidence. Jarman's testimony makes a great deal more sense if there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st floor and surely the WC could have established that.

From memory, I think some of the 2nd floor clerical workers claimed that Oswald used to pester them for change for the Coke machine on that floor. So maybe he swung both ways in his soda preferences.

Is any of this important? Maybe. The Cola/Dr. Pepper machine issue should have been cleared up and so should the Domino Room/Lunch Room confusion. Where was Oswald between 12 noon and 12.25? Astonishingly, the WC never really established this. In fact the testimony of Jarman and Norman, never mind that of Bonnie Ray Williams (he of the discarded Dr. Pepper bottle,) suggests he might have been nowhere near the 6th floor.

[Joshua Rogan]

Not for the first time I discover I have spent time re-inventing the wheel.

The issue of the soda drink machine or machines has been covered by several others. The LG theorists claim that there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st floor near the rear stairs and this was the machine referred to by Jarman. Since several witnesses described going up to the second floor to use the cola machine inside the lunchroom it was wrongly assumed that only one machine was inside the TSBD. It has also been claimed that Buell Frazier (some years later) remembered the Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor being next to a refrigerator.
If this is true then the WC missed an opportunity to undermine Oswald's reasons for being on the 2nd floor when confronted by Marrion Baker. Oswald had nothing in his hands according to either Baker or Truly and, devastatingly, was known to be a Dr. Pepper drinker! Case closed methinks.

Oswald was also known to drink Coca Cola, according to Truly, at least. Via FBI agent Hosty, Oswald told Cpt. Fritz that he bought a Coke from the second floor lunchroom. And Mrs Reid saw Oswald entering the second floor office from the direction of the lunchroom carrying a full bottle of Coke. The implication being that Oswald was entering the lunchroom from the stairs as Baker saw him, then purchased his Coke before leaving via the office space and the front stairs.

2nd Floor lunchroom Coke machine;

Some claim that a Dr. Pepper machine is visible in photos of the 1st floor taken for the WC although I can't quite see that myself; it looks rather 'Badgeman' to my failing eyesight. And if there was a refrigerator on the 1st floor why did some workers leave their lunches on the window sill in the Domino Room?

Using my strongest reading glasses, it looks like it could well be a Dr Pepper machine in one of the first floor photos, left of the fridge by the stairs. Here is the photo, and a 50's style machine for comparison;




better resolution

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DYBWsiTS3mw/WRkmKPykV0I/AAAAAAABLyE/BiicarJyu_sQ5bSl9pekzUXc1EdKSwH7gCLcB/s1600/TSBD-04.png

[cobalt]

'Harold Norman's nickname was Hank, not Shorty.'

I have also come across him referred to as 'Shorty' which makes sense when you see him next to Bonnie Ray Williams.

'Harman and Norman did not pass through the domino room shortly before the assassination. Norman's testimony is that he and Jarman went outside around 12:00 to 12:10. Jarman's testimony is that he re-entered the building with Harold Norman between 12:20 and 12:25, then took the elevator up to the 5th floor.'

I think this is accepted by everyone. The issue at hand is whether they were seen, or indeed could have been seen by Oswald at this time, something Fritz's curt notes fail to answer. The LG advocates prefer to make this a 'ghost sighting' from earlier in the lunch break since the alternative provides Oswald with a good alibi.

We know (well, from Fritz's notes) that Oswald claimed to be in the Domino Room at the time of the assassination; however according to the FBI investigator Oswald said he had lunch in the Lunch Room which might explain why nobody saw him in the Domino Room. He told Piper, the janitor on the 1st floor, that he was going up for lunch. Carolyn Arnold thought she caught sight of him there around 12.15 but she was not called by the WC.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald gave his weight as 140 pounds, not 131. 131 is lower than his weight when he enlisted in the Marines when he was a teen.

On page 79 of Jesse Curry's book, Assassination File, there is a copy of Oswald's arrest report.

His weight is recorded as 131 lbs.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Lets apply simple logic here. Which is more likely - Oswald was lying or Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty were lying.

I am applying simple logic!

You say Oswald was lying when he said he was having lunch in the building at the time of the shooting.

How do you know that Oswald was known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting?

[Fiver]

I don't see how you can substantiate the above statement.

Lets apply simple logic here. Which is more likely - Oswald was lying or Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty were lying.

[Fiver]

His weight, according to his arrest record in November 1963, was 131 lbs.?

Oswald gave his weight as 140 pounds, not 131. 131 is lower than his weight when he enlisted in the Marines when he was a teen.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald was lying when he said Jarman and Norman passed through the domino room shortly before the assassination.

I don't see how you can substantiate the above statement.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If Oswald was outside the building he would have had an alibi. Yet out of all the things he denied, Oswald never denied being inside the building.

Oswald claimed to be inside, in the domino room - a claim that is contradicted by the testimony of Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty.

Lets apply simple logic here. Which is more likely - Oswald was lying or Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty were lying.

You take Oswald's claim that he was having lunch at the time of the assassination to be proof that he was in the building at the time of the assassination even though you deny he was having lunch?!

I repeat my question:

How do you know that Oswald was known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting?

[Fiver]

How do you know that Oswald was known to have been in the building at the time of the shooting?

If Oswald was outside the building he would have had an alibi. Yet out of all the things he denied, Oswald never denied being inside the building.

Oswald claimed to be inside, in the domino room - a claim that is contradicted by the testimony of Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty.

Lets apply simple logic here. Which is more likely - Oswald was lying or Jarman, Norman, West, Acre, and Dougherty were lying.

[Fiver]

It's a pretty good description of a guy nicknamed 'Shorty' and a great deal more accurate than any ID witnesses of Oswald. The stumbling point remains: how did Oswald know that Jarman and Norman passed through the domino room shortly before the assassination?[/SIZE]

Harold Norman's nickname was Hank, not Shorty. Pictures show Norman was about the same height as Jarman, not unusually short.

Oswald was lying when he said Jarman and Norman passed through the domino room shortly before the assassination.

Harman and Norman did not pass through the domino room shortly before the assassination. Norman's testimony is that he and Jarman went outside around 12:00 to 12:10. Jarman's testimony is that he re-entered the building with Harold Norman between 12:20 and 12:25, then took the elevator up to the 5th floor.

Jarman testified that he ate his lunch while walking around on the first floor, not in the domino room.
Norman ate his luinch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Troy West said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Danny Acre said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
Jack Dougherty said he ate lunch in the domino room. He didn't see Oswald.
And Oswald claimed he had been alone, somehow failing to see West, Acre, and Dougherty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi Frank,

Connolly said he didn't see the President but his wife said she turned and saw the President clutching his throat and then saw the reaction as the second bullet hit her husband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_Y3F8tDYg&ab_channel=HelmerReenberg

Cheers, George

And note that during that interview, as in the press conferences he gave in 1963, when Connally mentioned the first shot he meant one that hit Kennedy in the back, by second shot he meant one that hit him, and by third shot he meant the one that caused the President's head to explode.

He did not mention the very first shot, which missed the limousine altogether, nor the throat shot.

There have got to be more than three shots.

(Roy Kellerman, Warren Commission testimony, Volume II, page 78).

[GBinOz]

Are you assuming Connally saw the president getting hit then, PI?

Hi Frank,

Connolly said he didn't see the President but his wife said she turned and saw the President clutching his throat and then saw the reaction as the second bullet hit her husband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_Y3F8tDYg&ab_channel=HelmerReenberg

Cheers, George