saving Liz Stride

[Suzi]

Convinced??- well as good as it gets- that Liz wasn't a Canonical - I will never be convinced that she was!

- Now the trinkets- easily given by a passing punter- or even picked up on the streets- or maybe lurking in Liz's pockets/ aka around her person - that would be more sensible I guess

..... Look at Kate's belongings- wonderful- distressingly personal things that make sense in a day to day way of 'life'

Liz was a slightly different character and had a place to go back to- least of all to retrieve that length of green velvet.. why she had it and why it was there -who knows.....Hmmmmmmm I reckon the 'flower' the 'cachous' etc etc are slightly worrying- although the cadaveric spasm with whatever was in the hand-is interesting.

Don't get me going on Packer and his grapes/reporters/detectives etc etc they were all bought either by Liz or her 'chum' that night....Death- well that's another thread/thought!

[perrymason]

I was just thinking that the perceptions of what personal lives these women may have had may be a pivotal area of any discord.

In my opinion, we have evidence that is corroborated by an ex-landlady of Strides given by Kidney that she was known to have disappeared a few times in previous years without announcing or notifying her close circle...(i.e. a boyfriend at that time).....where she went, or how long she would be gone for. Kidneys comments, "I think she liked me better than any other man" concerned his reasoning why she would return to him afterward.

That shows us some of Liz Stride in terms of her personal habits I believe....it shows us that she liked being with new men, and that she seemed to have a relationship during the recent past before her murder that was not a single continuous relationship, but rather he was the man she would return to when she had tired of a fling.....my opinion, of course.

Would that build anger or resentment in that man I wonder? Would he feel jealousy or similar emotions when she vanished for periods of time...to another mans arms it seems he assumed.

Now there she stands....in front of a Men's Club with her "good evening wear on" at 12:45am, with a flower arrangement on her jacket, cachous for her breath, sober as the day she was born, .......having left Kidney that same week,.....and with the idea in her head that she didnt need to concern herself with raising some money for a bed in her normal surroundings. She had already stated she wouldnt need it for at least that night.

Best regards all.

[c.d.]

I was just thinking that the perceptions of what personal lives these women may have had may be a pivotal area of any discord.

In my opinion, we have evidence that is corroborated by an ex-landlady of Strides given by Kidney that she was known to have disappeared a few times in previous years without announcing or notifying her close circle...(i.e. a boyfriend at that time).....where she went, or how long she would be gone for. Kidneys comments, "I think she liked me better than any other man" concerned his reasoning why she would return to him afterward.

That shows us some of Liz Stride in terms of her personal habits I believe....it shows us that she liked being with new men, and that she seemed to have a relationship during the recent past before her murder that was not a single continuous relationship, but rather he was the man she would return to when she had tired of a fling.....my opinion, of course.

Would that build anger or resentment in that man I wonder? Would he feel jealousy or similar emotions when she vanished for periods of time...to another mans arms it seems he assumed.

Now there she stands....in front of a Men's Club with her "good evening wear on" at 12:45am, with a flower arrangement on her jacket, cachous for her breath, sober as the day she was born, .......having left Kidney that same week,.....and with the idea in her head that she didnt need to concern herself with raising some money for a bed in her normal surroundings. She had already stated she wouldnt need it for at least that night.

Best regards all.

Hi Michael,

Be careful, you are venturing further and further into Cornwellian territory. The evidence tends to indicate that Liz may have had a lover. Therefore, he must have been jealous and he must have killed her. All that is left is slapping a case closed sign on it.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I would also expect that the police would have followed up and tried to question the man that Kidney claimed was the one Liz left him for. The same can be said of her neighbors and friends. Would not the police have questioned them and would not any mention of multiple lovers or jealousy raised a red flag?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

and with the idea in her head that she didnt need to concern herself with raising some money for a bed in her normal surroundings. She had already stated she wouldnt need it for at least that night.

And precisely to whom did she make this statement?

The evidence tends to indicate that Liz may have had a lover.

What evidence? Certainly not the evidence of her close associates, none of whom were aware of any man in her life outside of Michael Kidney.

This thread is perhaps the least factually accurate thread I've seen on Stride, and that's saying a lot. It should be moved to Pub Talk.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

By evidence, I was referring to Kidney's statement that Liz had left him for someone else. I used the word tends. I also said that Liz may have had a lover. Please don't confuse me with the hard core it wasn't Jack camp.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

C.D.,

Please direct me to where Michael Kidney says that Liz left him for another man. I'm seeing an awful lot of statements floating around on this thread that I've never read before.
If it were true that Michael Kidney said Liz left him that week for another man, and Liz stated (as Perry tells us) that she had a place to stay that night other than her doss, don't you think myself and other writers on the case would have long ago reached the conclusion that Liz had another man? The fact that no one has should tell you a) None of these things were every said, and b) There's no evidence that Liz was on a date that night or in love with another man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

I just reread Kidney's inquest statement. You are right, he made no such statement with regards to her leaving him for another man. I stand corrected. Apologies all around.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Chief Inspector Swanson, writing his summary report on the Stride murder, did not deem what the police had learned about the victim's past even worthy of recapitulation. 'It may be shortly stated, he noted gloomily, that the inquiry into her history did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive on behalf of friends or associates or anybody else who had known her.'"

The Complete History of Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden, p. 198

c.d.

[perrymason]

I didnt say that she obviously had a date that night Tom....I suggested it, but I did say that she likely left Kidney vs he left her, an important distinction.

...from the Inquest regarding her "disappearances"...

"
Coroner: When did you last see her?
Kidney: On the Tuesday, and I then left her on friendly terms in Commercial- street. That was between nine and ten o'clock at night, as I was coming from work.
Coroner: Did you expect her home?
Kidney: I expected her home half an hour afterwards. I subsequently ascertained that she had been in and had gone out again, and I did not see her again alive.
Coroner: Can you account for her sudden disappearance? Was she the worse for drink when you last saw her?
Kidney: She was perfectly sober.
Coroner: You can assign no reason whatever for her going away so suddenly?
Kidney: She would occasionally go away.
Coroner: Oh, she has left you before?
Kidney: During the three years I have known her she has been away from me about five months altogether.
Coroner: Without any reason?
Kidney: Not to my knowledge. I treated her the same as I would a wife.
Coroner: Do you know whether she had picked up with any one?
Kidney: I have seen the address of the brother of the gentleman with whom she lived as a servant, somewhere near Hyde Park, but I cannot find it now.
Coroner: Did she have any reason for going away?
Kidney: It was drink that made her go on previous occasions. She always came back again. I think she liked me better than any other man. I do not believe she left me on Tuesday to take up with any other man. "

I put the emphasis on the parts highlighted because they pertain to what is being disputed,....that we have on record a statement that suggests Liz would and could disappear for short or long periods of time suddenly, and that Kidney to some degree suspected that other men might have been involved.

I dont know what parts of the thread your referring to that are incorrect or misleading, but I dont think when adding the above to Liz Strides declaring she wouldnt return that evening to her regular lodgings and she didnt know when she might....with her dress, the flower the cachous and her loitering without it seems soliciting men in front of some gates to a Mens Club that had members inside at 12:45am, she being cold sober...with mints in her hand.....makes a far fetched "date" scenario at all.

Since they split up on Tuesday I believe and this is the first Saturday night after that, one might think that if she is awaiting a new lover for an all night date......she has after all left no clue where she was to sleep when she seemed to know it wasnt going to be the lodging house...that perhaps she had met or dated the man prior to that night. Assuming that the night might end with her spending it in his bed indicates that she did know of him prior to that night, and that he had suitable accommodations to be able to deliver that bed.

All of course assuming that what I feel are the many indications she was fussing about her appearance without intentions of returning to her regular digs meant she might have a date she hoped would go all night....are as I suggest they are.

Best regards TW, all.

[Tom_Wescott]

C.D.,

You're correct, nothing came up in the interrogations of her friends and associates to suggest anyone in her life had a reason to kill her. This is very important in evaluating Kidney. Her associates were interviewed, alibis were taken and corroborated, and they were asked if they knew anyone who might cause Stride harm. No arrows pointed to Kidney or any other man. This was not a domestic homicide.

Michael,

I don't know what you're on about. I called you to task on one post you made, and I quoted that post. You have ignored my inquiry. Of course it's possible that Stride was on a date for part of that night, but there's no evidence to that end. What we do know about Stride is that up to three days ago, she lived with Kidney, who presumably did not allow Stride the freedom to pursue another relationship. That she sparked one up in three days time is possible but unlikely. We know that she was a prostitute and was seen with different men on the night of her death. Therefore, the most likely conclusion is that she was not seeing anyone at the time of her death. After investigation, no suspicion attached to the one man in her life who might have had motive for killing her. Therefore, the probability is that the Stride murder was NOT a domestic homicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

For the pro-Ripper killed Stride camp, I believe that its important that the distinction between her overtly soliciting, as we know Martha, Polly and Annie were the night they were killed....or perhaps being there for social reasons is addressed.

Yes, he may have thought she was soliciting.....but the real point is that until 13 Millers Court, the evidence such as it is points towards a killer who preyed upon homeless women who were at the time of the deaths, soliciting.

Best regards

[perrymason]

C.D.,

Michael,

I don't know what you're on about. I called you to task on one post you made, and I quoted that post. You have ignored my inquiry. Of course it's possible that Stride was on a date for part of that night, but there's no evidence to that end. What we do know about Stride is that up to three days ago, she lived with Kidney, who presumably did not allow Stride the freedom to pursue another relationship. That she sparked one up in three days time is possible but unlikely. We know that she was a prostitute and was seen with different men on the night of her death. Therefore, the most likely conclusion is that she was not seeing anyone at the time of her death. After investigation, no suspicion attached to the one man in her life who might have had motive for killing her. Therefore, the probability is that the Stride murder was NOT a domestic homicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think the only thing I didnt address Tom was that Catherine Lane is the source for Liz's demeanor and departure from the lodging house.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

I think you confused Stride with Nichols again. One doesn't need to be in any 'camp' to see that Stride was following her trade when she was killed, like all the others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

"Chief Inspector Swanson, writing his summary report on the Stride murder, did not deem what the police had learned about the victim's past even worthy of recapitulation. 'It may be shortly stated, he noted gloomily, that the inquiry into her history did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive on behalf of friends or associates or anybody else who had known her.'"

The Complete History of Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden, p. 198

c.d.

It would be hard to imagine a more definitive statement from Chief Inspector Swanson. He certainly could have said "we are still following up on some leads" or "we are trying to locate a person of interest" etc. etc. Instead he writes "did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive." It seems the police were pretty certain of the validity of their investigation.

c.d.