saving Liz Stride

[lynn cates]

interruptus

Hello CD.

"Even if it was her intention initially to take a day off could she have changed her mind on the spur of the moment?"

Why not? We all know coitus interruptus. Half of ripperologists know mutilatus interruptus. Why not a datus interruptus?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

1888

Hello Tom.

"prostitutes kiss their clients. We're talking about 1888 here, not the 'escorts' advertising in the phone book."

I hope we remember this the next time we are tempted into a discussion of exotic forms of sex. Yes. 1888, not 1988.

The best.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well....

Actually Tom, there is proof that she was not soliciting...she was sober. I very much doubt that many people can just allow an invasion into their body by just anyone without a motivation such as alcohol or drugs. Big money maybe, but a room for 8 hours or so, I really doubt it.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Sleep, but your 'beliefs' aren't facts. Fact is, she was drinking that day and may even have been drinking that evening. That no alcohol was found in her body during autopsy doesn't mean she wasn't drunk, it simply means she didn't over drink. And of course a prostitute can have sex without being drunk. Most had sex to get money to GET drunk.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

swirl

Hello Sleek.

"She meets Jack, and after a brief hello, he tells her to lead the way to where he can start his work."

So they are heading into the yard and towards the kitchen door? Fine.

"Jack asks after a minute or two if they are close to where they need to go; she replies that they are, and reaches to grab a pill for her breath. She starts to sneeze, and the pills are clutched tight as she tries to "catch the sneeze"."

Isn't Liz still facing West? Doesn't she need to be the other direction?

"A hand reaches around in the dark, and attempts to place a cloth over her face...they swirl"

And as they swirl (which indeed recovers the proper compass orientation) what happens to Liz's clenched thumb and forefinger?

The best.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well not really...

Unless times have changed, prostitution usually has an addicition associated with it...are we really going to ask for a breath test to determine how sober she was?
Lynn...if she is struggling for her life, how can anyone, but those in the yard, predict the final position?

[sleekviper]

When panic hits...

The clutch is natural...People in a panic situation do what is not clear. Real life video shows people trying to pull a door, that only opens out. People panic.

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

Hello Tom. Whilst I would not rule out the possibility that Liz was "on duty" that night, it is FAR from obvious.

After all, her behaviour with the men with whom she was purportedly seen that night seems otherwise. A prostitute including a kiss? Supererogation!

The best.
LC

Have you an insight into the mind of Liz Stride? Perhaps you have a Crystal ball which spans the years and connects with the thoughts of Liz Stride? How do you know that Liz Stride did not kiss her more familiar punters? I'm sure some of the more experienced prostitutes had their regular clients, it could well be that the man she was seen kissing that night was one of her regular customers.

Also regarding Browns statement, the timing is in direct conflict with Schwartz's is it not? Both gave a time of 12:45 a.m. for their respective sightings, one of them was in error. Brown was asked if the woman he saw that morning spoke with a foreign accent, he answered in the negative. Why was he asked that question? Probably because the questioner knew that Liz Stride spoke with an accent. He also failed to notice the flower which was pinned to Liz Strides dress at that time. So, no accent detectable, no flower pinned to her dress, a conflict in the timing of his sighting. I don't believe Brown saw Liz Stride that night, rather he saw a different couple.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

prediction

Hello Sleek.

"Lynn...if she is struggling for her life, how can anyone, but those in the yard, predict the final position?"

We can't. But we CAN predict what will happen to the cachous UNLESS she dies where she stands. And that is facing east, about 9-10 feet from the gates.

The best.
LC

[Septic Blue]

For sanity's sake; could we please have a courtesy-flush?

[Observer]

All bow in respect, the genius speaketh

[perrymason]

Yes, Sleep, but your 'beliefs' aren't facts. 1.... Fact is, she was drinking that day and 2. ....may even have been drinking that evening. 3.....That no alcohol was found in her body during autopsy doesn't mean she wasn't drunk, it simply means she didn't over drink. And of course a prostitute can have sex without being drunk. 4.....Most had sex to get money to GET drunk.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

On the above points Tom,

1. Do you have any source for that statement? She cleaned rooms that afternoon.
2. That is not supported by the test that showed a distinct lack of alcohol in her blood.
3. That no alchohol was found in her blood does so mean she wasnt drunk. Empirically.
4. Many also had sex to earn money for a bed....at least the homeless ones.

That Polly drank away her bed a few times isnt something you should suggest as a base of behavior for all Unfortunates of that place and time Tom...but you know that.

Since 4 of the 5 Canonicals did not lease any room themselves, it seems many still managed to fight away the urges to drink based on the fact that they had slept in the same lodging houses consistently.

You used the term "threatened" yesterday....is that applicable to yourself today perhaps? Because if Liz wasnt soliciting then we wouldnt really have any reason to look for a pimp-type to have killed her.

Best regards Tom

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Observer.

"Have you an insight into the mind of Liz Stride? Perhaps you have a Crystal ball which spans the years and connects with the thoughts of Liz Stride?"

No. That's why I do not use words like obvious to explain her behaviour.

"How do you know that Liz Stride did not kiss her more familiar punters? I'm sure some of the more experienced prostitutes had their regular clients, it could well be that the man she was seen kissing that night was one of her regular customers."

And she stood him a pint with part of her 6d. (How can you be "sure"? Perhaps you have that crystal ball?)

"Also regarding Brown[']s statement, the timing is in direct conflict with Schwartz's is it not "

It is indeed. That's why I started the Schwartz and Brown thread. I wanted to see various insights in that regard.

"Both gave a time of 12:45 a.m. for their respective sightings, one of them was in error."

Well, how about both? The news account of Schwartz is that the police do not entirely believe his story. Brown was nearly certain. Nearly certain? Um?

"Brown was asked if the woman he saw that morning spoke with a foreign accent, he answered in the negative. Why was he asked that question?"

Possibly because the police thought it natural for a Swedish person to have an accent.

"Probably because the questioner knew that Liz Stride spoke with an accent."

Um, a friend described her speech as without accent--like an English woman.

"He also failed to notice the flower which was pinned to Liz Stride[']s dress at that time.'

NOW, you're talking! I agree.

" . . . I don't believe Brown saw Liz Stride that night, rather he saw a different couple."

Quite possible. But a bad memory is ALSO quite possible.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"Even if it was her intention initially to take a day off could she have changed her mind on the spur of the moment?"

Why not? We all know coitus interruptus. Half of ripperologists know mutilatus interruptus. Why not a datus interruptus?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm curious as to why the idea of Liz soliciting always seems to elicit sarcasm from you. Is the idea of a known prostitute soliciting that hard to accept? Is the idea that the evening might not have gone as planned and that she decided to solicit later in the evening so hard to accept? Even if she wasn't actively soliciting, is it so hard to believe that she might have decided to accept an offer from Jack late in the evening? It is not hard to imagine Jack having some kind of story..."I won some money playing cards earlier this evening"...I'll make it worth your while." It seems to me that a known prostitute possibly soliciting while by herself late at night doesn't require a great leap of faith but maybe that's just me.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Cadfael

Hello CD.

"I'm curious as to why the idea of Liz soliciting always seems to elicit sarcasm from you. Is the idea of a known prostitute soliciting that hard to accept?"

Not at all. Of course, there are various strictures about engaging in one's trade. So, for example, Abberline was a registered police inspector. What was he doing at night? Well, he could have been engaged in police work. Or he could have been sleeping. If the former, we might expect him at his office, going over details of a case. If the latter, he might have donned his night cap and clutched his teddy bear. And yes, he might try to sleep and, having failed, gone to SY to look over a case. But one presumes he would dress properly and not show up with night cap and teddy bear.

"Is the idea that the evening might not have gone as planned and that she decided to solicit later in the evening so hard to accept?"

Rather. Prostitution is usually viewed in the LVP context as a necessary evil. But your model looks like, "Fine. So the bloody so and so didn't show. Alright. I'll turn a trick. That'll show ya."

"Even if she wasn't actively soliciting, is it so hard to believe that she might have decided to accept an offer from Jack late in the evening? It is not hard to imagine Jack having some kind of story..."I won some money playing cards earlier this evening"...I'll make it worth your while."

OK. Proceed. They meet at the gates where she is loitering, dejected on account of her missed date. Jack meets her. Now what? (Please observe the strictures at the beginning of this thread.)

"It seems to me that a known prostitute possibly soliciting while by herself late at night doesn't require a great leap of faith but maybe that's just me."

Not just you. Many over the years have made that same leap. One has faith or not.

Permit me to leave you with this thought. I recall a "Brother Cadfael" episode, "One Corpse too Many." All but 1 had been hanged. But that 1 had been strangled by a thin cord. The sheriff shrugged his shoulders. Why worry about that 1? What difference does it make? Well, I feel like that good Benedictine. I want truth.

The best.
LC