saving Liz Stride

[Roy Corduroy]

Roy,

Go back and read the Star report and Swanson's summary of Schwartz's evidence. Schwartz had just moved from Bener Street THAT VERY DAY to his residence in Ellen Street. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass.

I actually have read the Star and Swanson's summary. Thank you, Tom.

You didn't read what I wrote and you did not answer what I wrote.

I am basically trying to engage in a dialogue considering the possibilities. If you are going to counter with

I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass

Well that's just ******* fantastic.

Roy

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. Now I get you. They needed a convincing delivery?

How long was it after the murder before his story popped up? Was it a day or two?

The best.
LC

It was on Sunday night Lynn.....which allows for some "setup" time.

All the best LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy,

This is what you wrote: 'Immediately after the murder, the police sealed off the premises for a thorough search and questioning of the people there. And they surely made a list of those people. If Schwartz and his family are living there, his wife and daughter are on that list. We seem to have no indication from a police report or newspaper clipping that he was "Israel Schwartz, a man residing at the club with his wife and daughter."

For this reason, I pointed you to the sources stating they had moved and what address they now gave. Obviously, Schwartz's wife and kids were not in the yard. I said what I said because it seemed to me like you were treating me like some of the more fanciful posters to these Stride threads.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

your lines

Hello Mike.

"It was on Sunday night Lynn.....which allows for some "setup" time."

I believe actors refer to it as a "rehearsal."

The best.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

they had moved and what address they now gave.

I'm sorry, Tom. Forgive me. I misunderstood you. So you actually believe his moving story. I thought the "Schwartz the Shill" camp proposed he lied about that.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy,

Actually, it was me who first proposed he MAY have lied, and he may have. But at this time it can't be proved, so we have to cautiously consider it as legitimate. If it's proved he was affiliated with the club, then that's another story.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi Roy,

Actually, it was me who first proposed he MAY have lied, and he may have. But at this time it can't be proved, so we have to cautiously consider it as legitimate. If it's proved he was affiliated with the club, then that's another story.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think Tom to be fair about this witness, we have room for doubt about his independence from the Club if Wess translated for him...they would have no declared knowledge of each other and no prior club relationship,... based on the content of his explanation for being at that location at that time, which requires some further explanation to validate....how much stuff did his wife actually have to move....based on his proximity to a club that was active and filled with men just like him, immigrant Jews,...and based on the fact that no-one has been able to uncover a single record of him attending the Inquest into Strides murder, a witness story that if true, HAD to be very germane to the Inquest officials.

We have a press account that suggests he was not believed by the authorities, we have no proof anywhere other than internal police correspondence that suggests that they did believe him, and we have no other witness who could or did verify any aspect of his story.

He matches the social status, the ethnicity, the age range and the Eastern European emigrant status that was shared by likely every member still singing and active at that club,.... that he says he was just outside of, by the gates, at 12:45am.

Logic alone puts his story and its context in question.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz's integrity

That Wess translated for Schwartz and that Schwartz was affiliated with the club is pure conjecture at this point. Good conjecture though it may be, it's not proved and may be wrong. Therefore, we have to consider Schwartz's evidence when considering what happened in Berner Street that night.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

That Wess translated for Schwartz and that Schwartz was affiliated with the club is pure conjecture at this point. Good conjecture though it may be, it's not proved and may be wrong. Therefore, we have to consider Schwartz's evidence when considering what happened in Berner Street that night.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hey TW,

My point was the foundation for such conjecture is all there already....all thats lacking is final proof of an association. It makes sense though.

I would disagree though that we "have to" consider his testimony.....since I have never seen a record of him giving his statement in court, and since I have never seen any document, like in the case of Lawende, that he was considered a "Star" witness....pardon the pun....and was sheltered from public appearances by the police.....or that he was used to help find his "suspect".... as Hutchinson was...all that I "have to" assume is that Israel Schwartz's statement was accepted and processed...and that some remarks on internal correspondence side with his account.

My personal belief is that the only interest his story was to the investigators concerns the call allegedly directed at Schwartz....because it suggests the ruffian was a Gentile. And its clear by the vast majority of the official opinions....most senior men thought Jack was a local Jew.

I think they had difficulty accepting the last man seen with Stride outside an active immigrant Jewish Mens Club, by a immigrant Jew, .....(making him the number one suspect....and therefore probably Jack, since most of them thought Stride was a Ripper victim publicly), was a man that was probably a Gentile....based on Abberline and others explanation for "Lipski". Thats the ONLY part of his story that is discussed by police later on in memos.

Best regards Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael,

Keep in mind that we don't have Abberline's report on Schwartz. This is what Swanson was summarizing from. So there's much we DON'T know. I agree with much of what you're saying, but it's very possible Schwartz saw what he saw, and the police did seem to have belief in him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

Keep in mind that we don't have Abberline's report on Schwartz. This is what Swanson was summarizing from. So there's much we DON'T know. I agree with much of what you're saying, but it's very possible Schwartz saw what he saw, and the police did seem to have belief in him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Fair disclaimer.

My best regards TW

[Hunter]

Saving Eliabeth Sride again

Merry Christmas everyone,

Since this thread was started to find reasons why JTR may have been Liz's killer I will try to follow along those lines. Disclaimer- Like many I am not certain that Jack was the culprit since I think Kidney is a viable suspect. But, Jack is a viable suspect also for these reasons that have been previously stated by others. Please excuse the redundant nature as this is a summary, if you will.

1. Stride was a prostitute. So were the other victims. It has been debated as to whether she was "working" that night but she was out on the street in her "old haunts" as someone put it. She was seen in the company of several different men- unless one man had a hat collection that he carried with him or the witnesses were confused (since I have little faith in witnesses that may be a possibility) But she was on the street and her pattern seemed to be doing just that when she would often leave Kidney and dissappear.

2. She was killed on a weekend

3. Her throat was cut.

4. Jack was out that night and the coincidence of 2 prostitute murders in the same area on the same night by different killers is possible but not likely.

5.Though violence was common, murders of this type were not. They occured over a wider space of time. Hence, the sensationalism over all of this at the time.

I would add that its not easy to disspell the idea that the murderer was interrupted because he may have been interupted with Nichols also. The notion that he would not have placed himself in such a vulnerable position ( Dutfields Yards) discounts the fact that all of the murder sites were precarious in their own way. Even Kelly's room was a potential trap. All it took was for someone to come to the door.

Some of the reasons to dismiss JTR as Stride's killer arer flimsy also.

a. Berner St. was the only murder location south of Commercial Rd. Thus out of JTR's area. Really? Mitre Square was in the City so, using that logic it was out of his area of operations too. All of the sites formed a perimeter so to speak but what makes them significant is that they are in a small area.

b. Stride's murder was earlier that the rest. So was Kate's

c.A different knife was used compared to the others. I know that the Doctors were asked for their opinions on this but they were sometimes conflicting ,as with the degree of medical skill. One cut to the throat with a scarf around it could be made by any kind of knife depending on the positions of the murderer and victim and how the knife was applied.

d. Stride was the only victim to be clutching something at the time of her death indicating she felt no danger..ie.. friend, lover... not Jack. All the more reason to suspect that it was not a domestic because these crimes seem to escalate from an argument that gets the killer riled up to the breaking point and eventually , even if its too late, alarms the victim. All of Jack's victims must have been comfortable with him to be overtaken so quickly.

Finally, The more murders in a serial killing, the easier it is to find a pattern and apprehend the killer. This was obviously not the case here. By comparison to later serial murders the numbers were few and the culprit was never caught, and this was the first, in modern times at least. But that's what draws us to this, together, in a common interest, isn't it? I've truely enjoyed reading all of the threads over the past several weeks.

Again, Merry Christmas everyone,
Hunter

P.S.- I would like to see another Kidney thread get started but I'm leary of another "Tom and Fisherman Show" like a year ago.

[DVV]

Merry Christmas Jason,
good post.
As to the viability of Kidney, well, he was Liz boyfriend.
That aside, there's nothing to charge this nice drunkard.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

I dont have the time to go point by point Hunter, although I disagree with a few of your rationalizations.....suffice to say there are no 2 sides of the story when it comes to the fact that Liz Stride was not mutilated in anyway, the interruption is pure speculation not something within the known evidence, and that Liz Stride is the 3rd woman murdered by throat slit on that evening, and we know Jack didnt do all 3.

Best regards and Holiday Wishes Hunter

[Hunter]

I dont have the time to go point by point Hunter, although I disagree with a few of your rationalizations.....suffice to say there are no 2 sides of the story when it comes to the fact that Liz Stride was not mutilated in anyway, the interruption is pure speculation not something within the known evidence, and that Liz Stride is the 3rd woman murdered by throat slit on that evening, and we know Jack didnt do all 3.

Best regards and Holiday Wishes Hunter

Any scenerio presented for anyone being the killer of any of these women ( except Brown's wife, obviously), is speculation, for the only conclusion still has to be what the inquests came up with- " killed by person or persons unknown".

I believe the original thread was looking for a plausible reason to include the perpetrator of the other unsolved murder that night with that of Stride. I am willing to admit that there are other scenerios that are being discussed on other threads that are cause for speculation as well.

Best Wishes and Happy New Year,
Hunter