saving Liz Stride

[lynn cates]

solicitation

Hello Jon et al. I think I see what you are saying. Schwartz got his story garbled in transmission. What happened is that Liz was doing a bit of soliciting in the dark part of the yard. BS came along and tried to pull her out of the yard. He could not, so he threw her down there, cachous in hand.

I got it.

Thanks.

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

I`m sorry, it`s a natural inference on my part when talking to a woman.

Just saw this. LOL

Cheers, B.

[lynn cates]

world record

Hello Archaic. Oh dear. You are changing from dragging to hurling as Jon suggested?

"9 or 10 feet was nothing to him."

True. He had broad shoulders. And those cachous weighed but little and she clung to them tightly as she was sent sailing the 9 feet from gates to her final disposition.

"He could have propelled the dying Liz into the yard a mere 4 feet or so"

Well, since her feet were 9' away, her head needs to be 5' 5" beyond that, minus the slight bending of the body. Say another 4 feet? But still no problem--broad shoulders you know.

Notwithstanding, I liked dragging.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

As things slip into the realm of fantasy once again, maybe people should review the alledged statement of Israel Schwartz.

Broadshouldered man grabbed her from behind as he approached, supposedly, and as he attempted to take her off the Club side of the road onto the street she resisted and fell. No-one threw anyone anywhere, youd think people who read the press of the times would know to take what is written as embellished or as written "sensationally".

Liz was accosted and as a result soiled her boot length skirt and she was helped in brushing off by her "assailant". At that point, if she knew the man and didnt realize it was him.......she may have dropped her guard. But instead we here he verbally threatens the storyteller to bugger off essentially. That continues to show this mas as possibly a threat to Liz herself.

BSM is therefore probably at best an acquaintance, but possibly a stranger.

Browns account for the same time has her with someone having a conversation...one that he overhears some of and its seemingly a private, quiet moment. My feeling is that Liz may have had the cachous out for that type of conversation....not for a post assault moment. She knows the man in Browns account...which make cachous a reasonable thing to hold.

As to the cachous being everyday items, no-one ever said they werent... surely not me....but the activity of an unknown man accosting her till she falls to the ground is not one that should make her interested in having a mint at that moment. Plus the cachous are not standard equipment when heading out to solicit Dockers and Slaughterhousemen who dont brush their teeth either and smell like fish or blood. They cost money....so would her bed and booze if she had chosen to be drinking while soliciting as well...like Polly. But she wasnt drinking either.

She puts the mints into her hand before she is murdered....I think Robert on that point, the clench indicates that she had them in her hand when she was suddenly choked from behind....and since that motion to her lying on the ground bleeding to death might have taken 2 seconds or less, you have the clench being a very predictable involuntary response. Like her pulling her knees into herself fetal style when she fell.

Best regards all.

[lynn cates]

party pooper

Hello Mike. Just as things were getting interesting, your reasoning proved a party pooper.

All the best.
LC

[Archaic]

Hi, Lynn.
I thought "hurling" was one of those wacky Canadian winter sports??
No, I said "propelled". A very elegant word.


I think we are getting hung up on minute details that it will probably be impossible to ever know with any real degree of certainty-

but what the hell, that's probably the definition of Ripperology, isn't it?

My point about the killer propelling, whirling, waltzing, whatever term you like, Liz Stride just a little way into the gates is this:
Say she was 9' from the gates to begin with.
He grabs her, slashes her throat, and propels her in another few feet deeper into the shadows feet as she is dying in his arms.
Liz is 5'5" tall, so if he immediately lays her down in a progressive manner beginning with her feet,
at the point where her head comes to rest she will be approximately 9 ft inside the gate.
Does that make sense?

I would think he'd lay her feet & legs down first, otherwise he'd just be dropping her hard on the pavement. He was trying to be fast and silent, so it's unlikely that he just dropped her and let her head hit the paving stones- it would have shown on the Dr's report if he had.

I think he grabbed her, cut her throat, moved her a bit deeper into the darkness of the yard and laid her dead body down all in one smooth motion with great speed and dexterity- after all, he was an expert at it.

One point I wonder about is if the killer grabbed Liz and killed her at that moment because he heard the pony cart approaching? He might have hoped the driver would pass on and been afraid the driver would catch a glimpse of them as he passed if he didn't instantly get Liz "under control" and into the darkness next to the wall. Just an idea.

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

passion

Hello Archaic.

"My point about the killer propelling, whirling, waltzing, whatever term you like
. . ."

Well put. Interpolate any term, but make the motion such that she does not spill the cachous.

As for the forensics--I apologize, but it's a bloody passion with me. And whilst doing Liz's, I realized that it's all wrong.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. Just as things were getting interesting, your reasoning proved a party pooper.

All the best.
LC

I just want to make sure that your thread has some controversial and counter posts so it will enjoy a long run Lynn.

My best regards as always mate

[Archaic]

Hi Lynn, do mind if I ask-

When you say "the forensics are all wrong", do you mean as established in the witness testimony or do you mean as stated in the doctor's reports, or what?

I know, curiosity killed the cat, but I can't help it.

Best regards, B.

[lynn cates]

the best

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Controversial? Liz Stride? Nah. (snicker!)

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

2 items

Hello Archaic. I refer to body placement and those sorry cachous. (Oh, dear! Why couldn't the poor girl have gotten herself murdered in a nice normal way?)

The best.
LC

[curious]

Doctor Blackwell stated that that he found the paper lodged between her thumb and first finger, Doctor Phillips saw some that had spilled out across the yard, so maybe she was dropping them, so to speak, when she died.

According to information in the witness section, Dr. Blackwell stated that he had spilled/dropped them when he tried to remove them from her hand.

curious

[curious]

Hello. The time seems ripe for a forensic reconstruction of the events in and near Dutfield's yard on the night of the "double event."

Both Fisherman and Perry Mason have offered cogent reconstructions that tend to place Liz Stride outside the canon. Now it's time for the other side to do the same to place her INSIDE.
LC

Lynn, I have read both Fisherman and Perry Mason's accounts and both make sense.

I can see only one possible way for Liz to be a Ripper victim, and that is if no one ever saw the Ripper because he remained hidden in the shadows.

He would still have "invested" his time in the victim, but not so that anyone would ever know it except himself.

You wrote:
Particularly helpful would be an explanation of the following conditions:

1. Explaining whether or not Liz was "on duty" or not.
My guess is not. However, because she was out and very visible, she drew attention to herself and thus became a victim.

2. What was her role vis-a-vis the man or men with whom she was purportedly seen that night?
The 11 o'clock man was likely her "date." (It's interesting to me that the witnesses noted that he had weak eyes. Sore eyes with no eyelashes" Wasn't another of the victims seen with someone with peculiar eyes?)

Perhaps he had a meeting to attend -- at the Men's Club would be my guess -- and she was waiting around for him to be available. The "you'd say anything but your prayers" man was a longtime client or friend with whom she was passing some time.

3. What was the significance, if any, of Schwartz's story?
After having read Fisherman and Perry Mason's takes, that sounds real to me -- it was someone who thought she was soliciting and he wanted to make her stop. I don't think BS was Jack, not behaving in public like that. I'm don't think BS was her killer. If Kidney was BS, then what he was dealing with had happened over and over again. I didn't find any description of Kidney so I don't know his statistics. I think Kidney just expected she would come back. However, there's no way to be sure that he wasn't pushed to the breaking point with her leaving and then finding someone new. However, that's not what you're asking for here.

4. Who was her assailant? Was it "Jack"?

For it to have been Jack, it had to be someone who was also hanging out, "stalking" the very visible Liz, waiting for his chance.

OR Jack was her 11 o'clock guy that she had plans to meet later.

5. Why was she leaving the yard when killed?
I kept thinking there were likely privies in the yard, but I never read anywhere that there were.

Anyway, after Liz disposed of BS man, sending him on his way, either she went in search of a privy, OR she went toward a lighted window in order to brush off her skirt and tidy herself in privacy to prepare for her upcoming date.

It was so dark in the yard that when Joseph Lave went outside for some fresh air at 12:40 a.m., "he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in."

So Liz, having either found a privy and/or rearranged herself after the scuffle, was on her way back to the gate. Anticipating her "date," she took out her cachous. She was totally unaware that her stalker had followed her inside and positioned himself where she would have to pass by him to get to the gate. Or perhaps her date was laying in wait, having seen her from the window and recognizing his opportunity.

Now, Liz was 5'5". I believe her attacker had to be somewhat taller despite the fact that she was said to be "slight." He grabbed her from behind using either a "choke" hold or one hand over her mouth while he quickly sliced her throat with the other. (There were marks on both shoulders under her clavicles that I haven't seen explained anywhere, and her bonnet came off and was lying near her body.)

Liz was pulled back against her killer and slumped in death. He simply laid her down, backing away from her. Perhaps he even stopped to feel her pulse (the blood on her right hand and wrist) before he left (and perhaps even to take her money since there was testimony that she had money when she left the boarding house). There was testimony that she would have bled out slowly since only one artery had been severed -- taking as much as a minute and a half to die.

6. Is there a scenario for the cachous in her grasp other than an extremely quick kill?

I don't see any. cadaveric spasm has been suggested on these boards, only I have to wonder since death was not instanteous here, but took more than a minute.

7. If Jack were her assailant, did he carry 2 knives or did he go home to fetch a different knife for Kate?

Carrying two or more -- not enough time to go back home, plus, going in and back out might create questions.

There are a couple of points that make it seem to me likely that Liz was a Ripper victim.

A. "Her head had been almost severed from her body," according to Dr. Blackwell. That would take some strong, firm cutting and likely practice.

B. What would be the odds of having two throat-slitting men wandering around on the same night within minutes and in close proximity of each other?

His were the measured steps Fanny Mortimer heard as he headed to meet Catherine Eddowes. I don't think he ever intended to mutilate Liz, as the first victim. He had to be clean enough to not attract attention as he moved on to the second.

To me, this is just a possibility -- I'm not totally positive Liz is a Ripper victim, nor some of the others in fact. But that's an entirely different thread.

Curious

[Archaic]

That was an interesting post, Curious; good job.

Hello Archaic. I refer to body placement and those sorry cachous. (Oh, dear! Why couldn't the poor girl have gotten herself murdered in a nice normal way?)

OK, Lynn, although I do commiserate with you, I was trying very hard to look on the bright side, and I finally came up with something:

Now we all know how to spell "cachous"!

That's something- isn't it? Even if it is unlikely to ever come up in a spelling bee... or even a crossword puzzle.
Maybe Scrabble?

Here is a Victorian Cachou-Case. Sure wish Liz had carried one of these instead of the paper packet.


Cheers, Archaic

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Curious. Excellent post.

"I can see only one possible way for Liz to be a Ripper victim, and that is if no one ever saw the Ripper because he remained hidden in the shadows."

Probably so. He attacked her as she exited.

Can you show me in the testimony that her head was as deeply cut as you indicate?

What are the odds of 2 throat cutters? Well, given that Jack did not do the torso jobs, I'd say 100%.

The best.
LC