saving Liz Stride

[lynn cates]

Hello. The time seems ripe for a forensic reconstruction of the events in and near Dutfield's yard on the night of the "double event."

Both Fisherman and Perry Mason have offered cogent reconstructions that tend to place Liz Stride outside the canon. Now it's time for the other side to do the same to place her INSIDE.

Particularly helpful would be an explanation of the following conditions:

1. Explaining whether or not Liz was "on duty" or not.

2. What was her role vis-a-vis the man or men with whom she was purportedly seen that night?

3. What was the significance, if any, of Schwartz's story?

4. Who was her assailant? Was it "Jack"?

5. Why was she leaving the yard when killed?

6. Is there a scenario for the cachous in her grasp other than an extremely quick kill?

7. If Jack were her assailant, did he carry 2 knives or did he go home to fetch a different knife for Kate?

I appreciate that some of these have been reconstructed on various other threads, but I believe it would be helpful to blend the diverse elements into 1 harmonious whole.

I have observed, before, that some version which includes Jack hiding up the yard and springing on her whilst pacing may be most fruitful. Another possibility would be that she met her assailant at the kitchen door and were leaving with him.

Have fun fitting the pieces together and I'm sure we all look forward to a finished (or nearly so) puzzle.

LC

[JTRSickert]

1. Since Liz was registered as a professional prostitute in both Sweden and London, I'd have to say it's highly likely

2. I don't think they were all the same man. More than likely she met up with a few clients that night (ex. the man hugging and kissing her outside the pub and the later appearances of the other chaps, one of whom may be Jack)

3. Schwartz was probably the one who at least saw the initial stages of the murder. That being said, I don't think Liz's struggles ended after Schwartz fled. I think she continued to put up a bit of a fight until the killer was finally able to get her under control and slash the neck. by that time, Diemschutz was coming down the street.

4. I think it was. However, we can't be definitely certain. If there is a second choice, my guess would be Michael Kidney.

5. Perhaps she didn't like the attitude or look of her potential client (maybe JTR) and decided to go, which prompted the killer to become more violent.

6. I think the cachous was used to make her breath seem sweet for her next available client, especially if her last "task" was oral sex.

7. I think it is possible Jack killed with 2 knives. One might have been a "spare." or maybe one was usedfor his killing, the other he used for his regular job. However ,it is also a strong clue that may point away from JTR not being the killer.

[lynn cates]

Hello JTR. There is much plausible here.

I wonder if 3, 5 & 6 sit well together?

The best.
LC

[j.r-ahde]

Hello JTR!

To your point 7.:

Jack may also have taken some prostitue's knife for himself. Remember, LVP prostitutes used carry knives as self-protection!

All the best
Jukka

[lynn cates]

elegant

Hello JR. Yours is an elegant solution. Notice that it might also answer the question about ripping/organ removal, since it has been argued that the organ removal was tantamount to trophy taking. So if he took Liz's knife and slashed her throat, he may find no need for a further trophy, the knife sufficing.

Any thoughts on 1-6?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Sorry I can't contibute my valuable insights to this thread. Poor Liz has been done to death (pun intended). It will always come down to probabilities and whether it is more likely Jack or not Jack.

I'm afraid I can't be arsed any more. Finally...I got to use that expression. Hope I used it correctly. If not, I would appreciate any English people letting me know.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello CD. Thanks the same. I have been wanting to see this reconstruction for some time. Unfortunately, even partial ones seem to involve elements that do not fit together.

Any hope for either of my 2 offerings?

The best.
LC

[kensei]

My offerings, in my humble non-expert opinion, being of the belief that Liz was indeed a Ripper victim:

Question 3- With anti-Semitism being strong in the East End, Schwartz certainly had every reason not to call attention to himself. The very fact that he came forward with his report seems to give him credence. I think he saw what he said he saw.

Question 4- Was Liz killed by Jack? I know it will be debated endlessly, but I will always fall back on one rather simple contention- Even in the East End where violence was a way of life, the concentrated and deliberate slashing of women's throats must have been if not uncommon then at least not a dime-a-dozen occurrence. For two of them to occur within forty minutes, and by my own rough recreation while on vacation in London a 14-minute walk apart, I just think that the statistical probability of more than one person likely to commit such an act being out there doing it at the same time within that window is unlikely.

Question 7- Jack's knives. I know this will be strongly disagreed with, and I'm not saying it's where I firmly stand, but I have wondered from time to time about just how accurate the forensics of the LVP were as compared to today. I think they did a fantastic job in most cases considering what they had to work with within their still developing technology. But if a conclusion was made that Liz and Kate were killed with different knives- must we take that as gospel? Even today I would think that differentiating between the damage inflicted by different knives (as opposed to the ballistic study of different guns which leave their bullets behind) might be slightly less than an exact science. I think Jack the Ripper would have carried medium-sized knives, nothing too large for concealment's sake.

[lynn cates]

continuous

Hello Kensei. You have some interesting points here. Would it be possible for all 7 to be woven into one continuous fabric?

The best.
LC

[JTRSickert]

Another thing to consider is that there are a lot of unusual aspects to this case that make it significantly different from the other Ripper murders, and I'm not just referring to the lack of mutilation. In the first place, this is the only homicide that takes place south of Commercial Rd. So, if it was the Ripper, then he sort of ventured outside of his primary comfort zone, even if it was only some few blocks away. Another thing is that this homicide is the earliest one to occur out of all them (circa 12:45-1am). So, if it was the Ripper, his bloodlust must've been really up to commit it that early, when more people would have been out rather than a couple hours later when a lot more people were likely to be asleep. Also, the murder was commited in a street that seemed to be really busy that night, given by the number of witnesses we have that allegedly saw something. Another aspect is the Jewish connection to both this murder and the Eddowes murder. First, Stride is murdered next to a Jewish Socialist club. Second, a very important witness in this case is a Hungarian Jewish immigrant. Third, the attacker yells out an anti-Semetic slur either at Pipeman or the witness. Fourth, a Jewish man is the one who discovers the body. Fifth, in the Eddowes murder, the last 3 witnesses who see the victim and the murderer are all Jews (plus one of them, Joseph Levy, seems evasive and perhaps knows more than he is letting on in later testimony). And finally, sixth, we have the anti-Semetic graffiti with the apron later found in Goulston street.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in...Sugden does a good job of discussing the knife. He concludes, based on Dr. Llewellyn's testimony, that the knife used on Liz, is similar to the one used on Polly Nichols.

Sugden states...[T]here must always be an element of doubt about the Stride case. On the evidence as it now stands, however, it seems probable that she was indeed struck down by the slayer of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman. The case for discounting Elizabeth as a Ripper victim is not as weighty as it first appears."

I have to agree with Kensei. Kate's murder so close by and so soon thereafter is just too much of a coincidence for me.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

got scenario?

Hello CD. Quite coincidental--they occur near one another in time.

A reconstruction would be most helpful here. Wouldn't have one lying about?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Not just time but location as well. I also see Kate's face being ripped as an indication of Jack's frustration that he was not able to cut open Liz.

Sorry about the reconstruction. Just don't have the energy at the moment as it seems to be to a dead horse.

c.d.

[curious]

Hello JTR. There is much plausible here.

I wonder if 3, 5 & 6 sit well together?

The best.
LC

Are you considering Annie Farmer as 6?

curious

[perrymason]

Since this thread is about making a case FOR Liz as a Ripper victim I feel its fair to only mention points that more likely exclude her as counters to the ones below....

1. Since Liz was registered as a professional prostitute in both Sweden and London, I'd have to say it's highly likely

My counter would be that we would require some evidence to suggest that Liz was soliciting on this night in particular to advance a theory such as that, and in the case of Liz Stride we have physical and circumstantial evidence available, none which confirms a suspicion of soliciting. Including her appearance and accoutrement's.

2. I don't think they were all the same man. More than likely she met up with a few clients that night (ex. the man hugging and kissing her outside the pub and the later appearances of the other chaps, one of whom may be Jack)

We only need deal with the later witnessed encounters as they are the only people that we have any witnesses for near the time of her death...no-one seen with her earlier re-appears...so, In the case of Israel Schwartz we have an altercation not to Liz's Strides pleasure, and with Brown we have a quiet conversation. Since she is found with something in her hand that would not likely be there in a moment of fear or the fear of imminent danger, Browns sighting is more likely the kind of interaction she had just before she was cut.

3. Schwartz was probably the one who at least saw the initial stages of the murder. That being said, I don't think Liz's struggles ended after Schwartz fled. I think she continued to put up a bit of a fight until the killer was finally able to get her under control and slash the neck. by that time, Diemschutz was coming down the street.


Since there is no other witness that saw or heard anything of Israel Schwartz, Pipeman or Broadshouldered Man, or the alledged altercation, despite that some had views of the street in front of the gates off an on from 12:45am onward, and since Schwartz is absent from all records of the formal Inquest without any explanation for his absence, I would think Brown was the actual Stride sighting and the details suggest she knew the man. In the BSM story, it suggests she did not know the man, hence....she wouldnt be having cachous almost immediately after being accosted. When Brown and Schwartz say they saw Liz is approx 1 minute before the earliest estimated time of her cut.....if that altercation happened, it almost certainly escalated rapidly once they entered the yard. Explain the cachous.

4. I think it was. However, we can't be definitely certain. If there is a second choice, my guess would be Michael Kidney.

Since there is no evidence that a Ripper killed Liz Stride, but there is circumstantial evidence that shows us she may have been waiting for a social date, not a "work" date, I would think the first place I would look is at any personal relationship issues.....oh thats right, she just broke up with a long term bedmate that same week? Might that guy get homicidal if he finds out she is dating already...maybe even while they were still together? Well, since that kind of crime happens almost daily in our modern world...I guess yes its possible Kidney killed her.

5. Perhaps she didn't like the attitude or look of her potential client (maybe JTR) and decided to go, which prompted the killer to become more violent.


She realized too late that she shouldnt be in the yard in the dark with this man, whomever he is. She turned to leave.....and left her mortal coil behind.

6. I think the cachous was used to make her breath seem sweet for her next available client, especially if her last "task" was oral sex.

How many Unfortunate women in the East End at that time who were homeless and without any resources from which to buy a bed for 4d, eat or drink themselves silly, would waste 1d on a breath mint? To earn their bed they likely had to do a few tricks, and to drink some of it away, well thats a few more clients. Liz had no money on her, including the 6d she was paid for cleaning rooms, and she was sober.....but she did have cachous and a flower on her jacket. Maybe thats where the 6d went. To dress nicely for a social event...one that she apparently expected would last all night. That she clenched them in death to me suggests she was anticipating having a close conversation with someone shortly...perhaps her "meeting" was for 1am.

7. I think it is possible Jack killed with 2 knives. One might have been a "spare." or maybe one was usedfor his killing, the other he used for his regular job. However ,it is also a strong clue that may point away from JTR not being the killer.

On Point 7, Your last line I definitely agree with.

Best regards all