saving Liz Stride

[lynn cates]

brush off

Hello Tom. Does one in Liz's trade often emit lines like, "Not tonight. Perhaps some other night"?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

C.D.,

I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. The police investigated Stride's associates and found no grounds for suspicion on anyone. That's what it says in the files. What is the point you're trying to make from this?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

For the pro-Ripper killed Stride camp, I believe that its important that the distinction between her overtly soliciting, as we know Martha, Polly and Annie were the night they were killed....or perhaps being there for social reasons is addressed.

Yes, he may have thought she was soliciting.....but the real point is that until 13 Millers Court, the evidence such as it is points towards a killer who preyed upon homeless women who were at the time of the deaths, soliciting.

Best regards

Hi Michael,

I think it is pretty much a moot point. What difference does it make if she was overtly soliciting or if Jack thought she was soliciting or if she decided to accept an offer on the spur of the moment? The question is did she voluntarily or non-voluntarily go off with someone into the yard?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Does one in Liz's trade often emit lines like, "Not tonight. Perhaps some other night"?

I would imagine there's many circumstances under which such an exchange could occur. For starters, it would depend on what question it was in response to. Would you like to go to dinner? Would you like to stay the night at my place? Just for example.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

C.D.,

I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. The police investigated Stride's associates and found no grounds for suspicion on anyone. That's what it says in the files. What is the point you're trying to make from this?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I'm confused why you are confused. I thought that was the point that I was making. It didn't leave the door open for any other interpretation or otherwise he would have said so.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

I'm taking the night off

Hello Tom. Whilst I would not rule out the possibility that Liz was "on duty" that night, it is FAR from obvious.

After all, her behaviour with the men with whom she was purportedly seen that night seems otherwise. A prostitute including a kiss? Supererogation!

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

I think you confused Stride with Nichols again. One doesn't need to be in any 'camp' to see that Stride was following her trade when she was killed, like all the others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I honestly dont know what you meant in the first line, but the comments in the second line are clearly as much personal opinion-based as my own were.

So my comments are well understood, heres what I am suggesting....

We know Liz left Michael occasionally, and often suddenly, during the 3 years together. And he thought he treated her as if they "lived as man and wife" when they were together during that time, and that "he used she liked me better than any other man" to explain her returning...excluding the total of five months within those 36 that he had no real idea where she was of who she was with. Her ex-landlady confirms these kinds of departures in the press.

She left Kidney that Tuesday night....he hadnt seen or heard from her since. The Saturday night after she earns 6d during the day for cleaning she puts on her "good evening wear", asks to borrow a lint brush to clean the skirt, and evidently decides not to put 4d of her earnings towards her bed for the night,.. instead she offers a piece of velvet to a co-lodger for safe keeping in her absence. She does not know how long she will be gone or when she might return. That is not unknown behavior from Elizabeth Stride, according to the man who treated her like his "wife" when she was around.

Later that night she is seen in the company of few men, seemingly flirty and having fun. She acquires a flower arrangement by either buying it herself of having it given to her, she also has cachous for freshening her mouth. Within her last 15 minutes she is likely seen by either James Brown or Israel Schwartz, in one case she is having a quiet conversation with someone whom she tells "another night"...in the other she is being manhandled by a drunk in the street with at least one other witness in addition to the witness Schwartz present. At 12:45-:46am, she is seen getting up and having the assailant help brush her skirt off in the second scenario....and we only know she was last seen across the road from the gates around 12:45 by Brown.

Up until this point we have no reason to suggest Liz Stride was actively soliciting, in fact if Brown did overhear Liz Stride, we have proof she was refusing some company for that night. Since it is 12:45, I would assume that if she had some plans for that night with someone, they had yet to occur. And she stays within a stones throw of a club that still housed some 30 men for her last 1/2 hour.

Thats the basic outline of what I see here...Im not saying that this makes Michael Kidney the likely man at all.....for all I know and maybe Liz herself, the "new" man she is to meet and perhaps sleep with might really be one bad ass.

He could be your LeGrand type even.

Best regards Tom, all.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

How do you get all that to jive with Swanson's statement? Their investigation didn't turn up anything.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Why does it have to be all or nothing with regards to Liz soliciting? Even if it was her intention initially to take a day off could she have changed her mind on the spur of the moment?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

How do you get all that to jive with Swanson's statement? Their investigation didn't turn up anything.

c.d.

I think that perhaps cd their perceptions of what was transpiring in that neighborhood at that time were somewhat skewed, and understandably so. In this case what we are sorely lacking is an abdominal mutilator....I do know why they went off looking for one who killed Stride, but I dont see why we should automatically do the same.

Distance in time and the lack of any responsibilities to the department or the community at large allow us some luxuries in our perspectives I think.

Cheers cd, all the best.

[Tom_Wescott]

We know Liz left Michael occasionally, and often suddenly, during the 3 years together. And he thought he treated her as if they "lived as man and wife" when they were together during that time, and that "he used she liked me better than any other man" to explain her returning...excluding the total of five months within those 36 that he had no real idea where she was of who she was with. Her ex-landlady confirms these kinds of departures in the press.

Some of that five months would be accounted for by her occassional time in the workhouse when Kidney was broke. When not with Kidney, she would stay by herself in a lodging house. Again, none of this points towards another man, but away from it. The fact that such behavior was not altogether uncommon makes it even more unlikely that a) Kidney would act out against Liz, and b) that there was another man.

The Saturday night after she earns 6d during the day for cleaning she puts on her "good evening wear", asks to borrow a lint brush to clean the skirt, and evidently decides not to put 4d of her earnings towards her bed for the night,.. instead she offers a piece of velvet to a co-lodger for safe keeping in her absence. She does not know how long she will be gone or when she might return. That is not unknown behavior from Elizabeth Stride, according to the man who treated her like his "wife" when she was around.

Polly Nichols had her money 'three times' the night she died and none of it went to her doss. She was wearing a new dress and a 'jolly bonnet' recently received. Yet where was the new man in her life? Stride was used to a slightly better life than Nichols and Chapman. Mary Kelly was reputedly very clean, yet she was a prostitute. Just because they were whores doesn't mean they couldn't use a lint brush.

And there's no way Le Grand would have slept with Stride. He had too many sweet young honeys he could play with.

Lynn,

And yes, prostitutes kiss their clients. We're talking about 1888 here, not the 'escorts' advertising in the phone book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[cappuccina]

I agree, CD, and, in fact that's how a lot of women "ran" their lives....need a place to sleep, out of money....go out for a while...need a bonnet, booze or a pint, go out for a while...could be different time of the day, different days, whatever...

Most of these women didn't even have regular food, let alone what we would call meals...so the combo of ill health, starvation and drunkeness would not bode well for keeping any kind of "regular schedule"....not to mention being homeless...

[perrymason]

I answered inside the quote for direct referencing Tom,...

Some of that five months would be accounted for by her occassional time in the workhouse when Kidney was broke. When not with Kidney, she would stay by herself in a lodging house. Again, none of this points towards another man, but away from it. The fact that such behavior was not altogether uncommon makes it even more unlikely that a) Kidney would act out against Liz, and b) that there was another man.

Kidney could not answer where she went or what she did during those absences, he hints at knowing of a work arrangement she had during one of them, and he is answering a question as to why she would return after these absences when in his response he offers the line about his feelings on her preference for him over other men. He has also had Liz press assault charges on him in the past, which I believe she withdrew, and he was left that same week by the victim,...so he is far from an unreasonable suspect despite what the investigation they performed on him revealed. But he doesnt have to be the "love interest" that cause her death.

Polly Nichols had her money 'three times' the night she died and none of it went to her doss. She was wearing a new dress and a 'jolly bonnet' recently received. Yet where was the new man in her life? Stride was used to a slightly better life than Nichols and Chapman. Mary Kelly was reputedly very clean, yet she was a prostitute. Just because they were whores doesn't mean they couldn't use a lint brush.

Polly Nichols was out soliciting and that is supported by her own remarks and that of others. What she did with her money isnt the point, nor what gifts or presents she may have been given or bought herself. She was hammered, Annie was sick, Kate was hungover, but all 3 were assumed to be out for the purposes of solicitation

Tom Wescott

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Again, there's nothing to suggest Stride wasn't soliciting. That was her trade. That's why she'd be out at 1am on the street. It's not rocket science. Is it possible she had a date? Sure, in the same way it's possible aliens killed her. But the balance of probability lands on her soliciting that night.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Well...

Theory will not get far, but that is fine. Jack is going to do a double murder, and has planned accordingly; step one, is to send "Dear Boss". England sets up the special branch to the postal service, in 1793, to prevent people from using the mail to advance criminal activity. If a criminal is dumb enough to mail a threat from post office A, they maybe dumb enough to post it to a postal clerk that can identify him as the person that bought a stamp at his window in the same post office. Anyway, criminal activity should be reported to help twarp what actions may occur, or may have been threatened. Jack knows this, and sends a letter claiming a crime, and forecasting not only murder,but body parts from a victim being sent through the postal system. He asks that the letter not be printed until he writes again; so now we have two forms of communication being offered, one to news, and secondly a package to the police with body parts.He keeps it simple, one name, only his. Bright red ink. Large writing.
Step two, find his first mark. Probably the only unknown part of this crime, is why he chose Liz. However he did it, she fell hook, line, and sinker. What he probably said was that he was a student of dentistry that was working full time through the week, and needed more practice, to improve his skills. She couldn't tell anyone of what he was asking because it would cost him the chance to have a license; so if she would agree, and not tell anyone of this meeting, he would give her a wonderful smile for free. She probably would have asked about the pain, and he would have said that diethyl ether would have her sleeping like a baby through the whole thing. He would have said that she would probably need a few days to recover, but after that she would have the smile of a queen. The offer is too good to refuse, and she agrees to meet at a patrolled location at about 12:30 Sunday Morning.
Step three Liz...she wants the smile, but can't afford to be laid up for days while she heals, but she knows a certain friend that could have her over for a few days, she will just fix that green dress that she is so fond of from years gone bye, but should have stopped wearing before she gained 30 pounds, and busted the buttons. Step three Jack...He mails the postcard Saturday night, the clear as neon sign postcard, and it is found during sorting at 7 to 8 pm.
This is like a dream come true for Liz, and Jack sits in a room, smiling broadly, wondering how many more men will act on what he sent. He knows that he has just preformed pure brilliance, and they will find out too late. See they hold a communication that says tommorrow, not a day of the week. Tommorrow from a Saturday means Sunday...so they think that he has struck, and the bodies are not as easy to find. All the clearly public police are going to be sent to look for bodies....two bodies...already dead, but he has not set out to kill yet. When he may have looked like a suspect, he now appears to be nosy spectator, when a dark corner may have been a setting for surprise, it has been checked already, and will not be checked again soon. He picks up his blade, and views his eyes in the reflection..."such a shame," he thinks, " That good French food is harder to locate each day"....he smirks and laughs to himself, as he dons his black overcoat, and disappears into the darkness of the night.
Liz feels alive, and has no desire to drown her life in booze. Not trusting anyone with her being under ether, she brings no valuables.She is going to be beautiful, and wants to remember life before and after. She picks up a half broken comb, and then thinks that the new her deserves a treasured, fully intact one when she wakes . She has her pills for her breath...can't be worked on with foul breath, and the items to fix the clothing as she recovers. She meets Jack, and after a brief hello, he tells her to lead the way to where he can start his work.
Jack asks after a minute or two if they are close to where they need to go; she replies that they are, and reaches to grab a pill for her breath. She starts to sneeze, and the pills are clutched tight as she tries to "catch the sneeze". A hand reaches around in the dark, and attempts to place a cloth over her face...they swirl, and the glimpse of a flash...the reflection of a blade...hits the corner of her eye before she feels her body fall forward, and the words, " Just business my lady, just business." echos in her ear. Jack is working on the words of his postcard to realize his crimes, and victim number two, is waiting in the flanks of the searching police...How I see it. Yes, I think that steps were taken to diminish the control of what Jack actually held, for the sake of control over chaos....mobs would rule if the police held that postcard before Monday....afterall, if he was running over them, might as well take action into groups control.