saving Liz Stride

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

I'm afraid I barely have time to do my own research, let alone yours. The answers are there in the inquest. Liz was an alcoholic and yes she consumed alcohol that day, perhaps that evening.

If you guys want to believe that Liz was starry-eyed in love with some chap, then by all means do so, but it's the less likely of conclusions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

If you go back and read Swanson's statement (post no. 249), the idea of a boyfriend/lover/pimp/jealousy doesn't seem very probable. Anybody wanting to travel that road would seem to be merely speculating, possible maybe but not so probable.

c.d.

[perrymason]

If I may answer for both Lynn and myself because Im pretty sure we feel sympatico on some of these issues.....without any evidence known to exist that can be used to make solicitation assumptions in the case of Liz Stride with, its equally or perhaps more probable that she did not engage in any such activities that night,...nor had she any known intentions that suggest she would be sleeping with any clients that night....yet she advised a lodge mate that she would not be returning that night.

Many people in Ripperology have the annoying habit of creating some imaginary box that all Unfortunates fit into regarding these cases, in that they all prostituted all of the time.

When the evidence clearly shows that almost all the Canonicals had known relationships with men outside of their survival "work', and therefore they had actual social lives outside of work too.

Liz may very well have been waiting for a date based on actual evidence that does exist, and the evidence shows that Mary Kelly was in her room likely sleeping when she first meets her killer.....therefore neither were likely prostituting themselves at the time they met their respective murderers.

So thats 2 of out a possible 5 that were not likely soliciting....negating the perceptions that all prostitutes solicited all the time....and perhaps that the homeless prostitute killer was to blame.

The old standby's that many seem willing to cling to, despite the continued cries for some supporting evidence to enable those ideas, are not a viable platform from which to criticize or denigrate any ideas that would contradict those positions. They include a fixed Ripper victims list, and the positions on certain circumstances of some of the murders. Just because we feel that Jack's MO was to find homeless women who were out prostituting themselves on the street, that doesnt mean that Liz must then have been doing so. Or that Mary met her killer that way.

In both cases, we have no reason to believe that was the case based on the known and accepted evidence.

Best regards

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

Think I'll leave matters Crystal ball to you. You are the Crystal queen

And she stood him a pint with part of her 6d. (How can you be "sure"? Perhaps you have that crystal ball?)

What has that to do with the argument?

Also.

Brown did not discern a foreign accent, presumbly the lady he observed spoke in the local London accent? He did not notice anything out of the ordinary regarding the womens accent, therefore is it posible that Liz Stride spoke in the local accent? I tend to think not, not perfectly anyway. In areas where a strong English regional accent is spoken a born and bred local will always detect the foreigner, no matter how long the foreigner in question may have spent in that area. I would. They may get quite near to effecting the accent, but to pull off a Scouse, a Geordie a Cockney accent to the letter is nigh on impossible. In your favour is the fact that very few words were spoken by the couple observed by Brown


Lets see, in your book, Schwartz gets the thumbs down, Lawende might not have saw Eddowes, Richardson is a fibber, Elizabeth Long is mistaken, but Brown who admitted the couple he saw were in darkness, is the real deal. Why is this? Because Brown suits your theory that Liz Stride was not soliciting that night. He heard Liz Stride refuse an offer to prostitute herself, something that no prostitute would ever do in your opinion.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello CD.

"the inquiry into her history did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive on behalf of friends or associates or anybody else who had known her."

I should think not. The testimony showed she had no enemies who had a motive to kill her. I also presume a friend, on friendly terms, would have no motive either. Of course, we sometimes quarrel with friends.

Or, if you like Tom's thesis, perhaps a pimp.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello CD.

"the inquiry into her history did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive on behalf of friends or associates or anybody else who had known her."

I should think not. The testimony showed she had no enemies who had a motive to kill her. I also presume a friend, on friendly terms, would have no motive either. Of course, we sometimes quarrel with friends.

Or, if you like Tom's thesis, perhaps a pimp.

The best.
LC

I think Lynn that the amount of murders that occur annually when the victim and killer do not know each other is consistently a relatively small percentage.....however, if you were to look at annual murder statistics in any city you would likely see that a large percentage of them were committed by people for reasons related to Love or Money.

I dont see any reason in the evidence to completely erase those as potential motivators with Stride, do you?

Hell, many people still claim she was killed by an abdominal mutilator.....and that isnt in any evidence in that murder that I can see.

My best regards mate

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

In light of Swanson's statement, it becomes a possible versus probable argument. You are right that we can't eliminate those arguments for a jealous lover or boyfriend but per Swanson they don't seem so probable.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Observer.

"You are the Crystal queen."

Oh, dear. Now I must explain my sex reassignment to my wife.

"Brown did not discern a foreign accent, presum[a]bly the lady he observed spoke in the local London accent? He did not notice anything out of the ordinary regarding the wom[a]n[']s accent, therefore is it pos[s]ible that Liz Stride spoke in the local accent? I tend to think not. In areas where a strong English regional accent is spoken a born and bred local will always detect the foreigner, no matter how long the foreigner in question may have spent in that area. I would."

But at the coroner's inquest, Liz was described by a friend as having no accent. She spoke English "Like an English woman."

"In your favour is the fact that very few words were spoken by the couple who[m] Brown observed."

In my favour? How in my favour? Both Schwartz and Brown are shaky witnesses.

"Let[']s see, in your book, Schwartz gets the thumbs down"

Not necessarily. But neither does he get the thumbs up.

"Lawende might not have [seen] Eddowes'

I like Lawende's performance best. There seems much to commend here. But is it a definite sighting? No. Merely quite likely.

"Richardson is a fibber"

I prefer little white lie. His testimony is on a par with Hutchinson and Packer. What were they?

"Elizabeth Long is mistaken"

Well, if she saw a couple AFTER 5:30 going into 29 Hanbury, she could not have died at 5:30. Right? So I daresay you will want to tweak her statement as well. (Have you ever noticed the time she left her home? Was she crawling to her destination that day?)

"but Brown who admitted the couple he saw were in darkness, is the real deal."

Eh? He is suspect as well. His testimony is QUITE shaky.

"Because Brown suits your theory that Liz Stride was not soliciting that night."

Is that my theory? Actually, her behaviour late that afternoon suits that.

"He heard Liz Stride refuse an offer, something that no prostitute would ever do in your opinion."

I don't know that she refused THAT offer. But I will not say that her soliciting was OBVIOUS. It is not.

Is your opinion that a prostitute cannot take a night off?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

SY

Hello Mike

"however, if you were to look at annual murder statistics in any city you would likely see that a large percentage of them were committed by people for reasons related to Love or Money."

Indeed. I think one should ALWAYS begin here. I hope SY did so. Of course, they were prepared to see a ripper killing and so . . .

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

i love my job

Hello Mike. I wonder if some of the chaps are suggesting that Liz was a workaholic? I suppose you've heard the phrase, "Hey, I love my job"?

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

Firstly let me apologise for assuming that you belong to the fairer sex. One thing I've been meaning to ask you though, you once informed me that Lynn was an old Scottish name. I lived in Scotland for many years, never came across a Scotsman called Lynn , not a one who would admit to that name anyway. Scots women yes, Welshmen Called Lynn yes.

Also, re Stride

Spoke English like an English woman? How does an English woman speak? I'll let you into a little secret, we have many different regional accents here in England. Are we assuming that when Liz Stride's friend said she spoke like an English woman, she actually meant that she spoke in a cockney accent? If so, then I doubt whether she would have perfected the accent to the degree where Brown would have been fooled into thiking she was a local woman. In short, regarding the woman Brown saw and heard on the morning of 30th September 1888 it's quite clear he heard the twang of the local cockney accent, not the affected accent of Elizabeth Stride.

I quote you

"Well, if she saw a couple AFTER 5:30 going into 29 Hanbury, [Street] she could not have died at 5:30. Right? So I daresay you will want to tweak her statement as well. (Have you ever noticed the time she left her home? Was she crawling to her destination that day?)"


Elizabeth Long did not see the couple go into 29 Hanbury Street as you imply, she observed them on the pavement outside 29 Hanbury Street. And it is quite possible that she heard the brewery clock strike the quarter hour 5:15 and not the half hour 5:30.

I quote you

"I don't know that she refused THAT offer. But I will not say that her soliciting was OBVIOUS. It is not"

You maintained earlier that she was doing just that, refusing an offer to prostitute herself, so I don't know where you're coming from by stating the above, you seem to have changed your tune.

Prostitutes are quite capable of taking a night off, I'll not dispute that, but it's obvious to me that Liz Stride was soliciting during the hours leading up to her death.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

accents, etc

Hello Observer. No need to apologise for my gender. That happens frequently. And you are right, the Welsh now have a taste for that name, the Scots, less so.

"How does an English woman speak?"

I presume she referred to the standard east end accent. (Standard? I recall Henry Higgins comment about the accent changing nearly every block on the east end.)

"I'll let you into a little secret, we have many different regional accents here in England."

Indeed. If I still had my teeth, I'd do a good Mayfair. Of course, I prefer RP.

"Are we assuming that when Liz Stride's friend said she spoke like an English woman, she actually meant that she spoke in a cockney accent?"

I assume that. You see, when you move to a new locale, it is easy to pick up the local dialect--unless you are quite old.

""Well, if she saw a couple AFTER 5:30 going into 29 Hanbury, [Street] she could not have died at 5:30. Right? So I daresay you will want to tweak her statement as well. (Have you ever noticed the time she left her home? Was she crawling to her destination that day?)""

"Elizabeth Long did not see the couple go into 29 Hanbury Street as you imply, she observed them on the pavement outside 29 Hanbury Street. And it is quite possible that she heard the brewery clock strike the quarter hour 5:15 and not the half hour 5:30."

Splendid. I entirely agree!

"I don't know that she refused THAT offer. But I will not say that her soliciting was OBVIOUS. It is not"

"You maintained earlier that she was doing just that, refusing an offer to prostitute herself, so I don't know where you're coming from by stating the above, you seem to have changed your tune."

Changed my tune? Not a bit of it. You see, I think it possible that Liz was seen by Brown. But I can't be sure. I was demonstrating why it is NOT obvious that Liz was soliciting. From my perspective, I think she was not. But, I would not be so bold as to claim it is obvious that she was not.

"Prostitutes are quite capable of taking a night off, I'll not dispute that, but it's obvious to me that Liz Stride was soliciting during the hours leading up to her death."

Very well. But there is nothing in her evening that seems obvious to me--especially not her plying her trade.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

You struck on a point I tried to make in an earlier post Lynn....if the Brown account is really the accurate one in terms of Liz Stride....a very legitimate notion since it is the only account for 12:45am that is recorded at the Inquest apparently...then we have a witness account of Liz Stride turning down someone, client or friend, and begging off for "another night".

If she was soliciting, which we have no evidence of, then that might have been a client propositioning her, which we have no evidence of...and that would indicate that she had OTHER plans on that evening. Either with another client she expected to meet up with, or a friend, or a date.

All the best Lynn

[lynn cates]

Brown

Hello Mike. Your post is quite refreshing. You used the magic word, "if." No talk of what's obvious.

My thought is that she was NOT on duty that night, and for many of the reasons you have so cogently argued before.

I am not real strong on Brown for a couple of reasons. But he WAS at the inquest and Schwartz was not.

All quite interesting.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

I suppose for me its the fact that the cachous explanation must in my opinion arrive at some answer that shows Liz to be in a state where she was not fearing immediate danger. Obviously.... in error.

I would think if she did not know the man who came from behind her in Israels story,..... that she seemingly pulled back from to cause her fall, without her acknowledging that connection while Israel was still in the immediate area...instead she witnessed the man scare Schwartz off......then I would think she would be in a state of fear, and I think the last thing an experienced street prostitute would do in that situation is to reach for her mints.

I do however believe that she entered the yard alone...to wait by the side door. I think she may have seen her "date" arrive at 12:40am and enter the yard.

My best as always amigo.