saving Liz Stride

[c.d.]

Hi Icarus,

Welcome to the boards. Your question is a good one. If you go back and read through the posts on this thread, I discussed the cachous at length in post no. 83. My belief is that the cachous tell us that the BS man was not her killer. It seems much more likely that she would have taken out the cachous with a client. To me, that points to Jack.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Someone killed her indeed. If being killed produces a killing spot, very well. But there was nothing particularly conducive to killing there.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Methinks I detect an anti-Jack sentiment here. It might not have been a particularly good spot for a killing but that has to hold true no matter who killed Liz, Jack or someone else.

And if you want to point the finger at the BS man, he went on to kill in that location after being seen by two witnesses one of whom ran off presumably to find the nearest PC.

c.d.

[perrymason]

No one neccessarily had to come from the yard behind Stride as she faced the street.If she was stood with a person with whom she felt safe,all that person had to do was make an excuse to go into the yard("I want to urinate")for example,and as soon as he was behind her,grap the scarf.Then half carry half drag her to where she was found.

Hi Harry,

I think I have a suggestion for a scenario something like the above....which includes "dragging", and I dont believe we have evidence that occurred.

Liz is talking to someone, facing them, in the yard. She is being intimidated and/or threatened. Maybe she has her back to the club wall and the killer is looming over her, like in Browns sighting. Maybe he followed he into the yard after that sighting. The bruises on her shoulders may be pokes at her by the killer to emphasize his meaning. Up until this moment she was feeling fairly safe, she even has mints in her hand while she is being "talked to". But something changes in the mans tone or words and she feels she may be safer waiting outside the gates near streetlamps...so she says something insulting or derogatory to him and turns to leave via the gates....he grabs her scarf, muttering "you bitch", pulls her off balance and as he manipulates the scarf by twisting it tightly, he reaches under her chin with his knife and as her drops her he cuts her throat. She falls and dies in the same position....with her knees drawn into her body in a reflexive, protective posture, and her cachous clenched tightly in her fist.

Aside from my dramatic effect in terms of dialogue....I think the scenario was likely something as simple as that. She is killed in a momentary flash of anger by a thug.

Best regards Harry, and the best of the Season to you.

[lynn cates]

seclusion

Hello CD.

"Methinks I detect an anti-Jack sentiment here."

Perhaps so. If we compare Liz with C1, C2 and C4, it seems all wrong. In those cases, the ladies quite likely chose the spot for its seclusion and facilitation of contract. But all that is missing in the case of Liz in Dutfield's yard. Where's the seclusion? And facilitation?

Still, a good reconstruction would go a long way here, and I still prefer (or find least fault with) Archaic's dragging.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

saucy tongue

Hello Mike. Not bad. Some prostitutes are known for saucy tongues and I think Liz could be like Tabram in that respect.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"Methinks I detect an anti-Jack sentiment here."

Perhaps so. If we compare Liz with C1, C2 and C4, it seems all wrong. In those cases, the ladies quite likely chose the spot for its seclusion and facilitation of contract. But all that is missing in the case of Liz in Dutfield's yard. Where's the seclusion? And facilitation?

Still, a good reconstruction would go a long way here, and I still prefer (or find least fault with) Archaic's dragging.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think you are looking at it from Jack's perspective not Liz's perspective. Unlike Polly and Annie, Liz is aware of two previous murders. Add Tabram to the mix. If you were in Liz's shoes, would you really want to go off to a dark, secluded place with a man that you had never met or would you prefer to do business in a place where help was close at hand?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

public place

Hello CD. Umm, well, I would not wish to ply my trade in that place, but perhaps there's the thrill of the public place.

"would you prefer to do business in a place where help was close at hand"

That's Aaron Kosminski, right?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Umm, well, I would not wish to ply my trade in that place, but perhaps there's the thrill of the public place.

"would you prefer to do business in a place where help was close at hand"

That's Aaron Kosminski, right?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Jack was a serial killer not a bank robber. If he was overcome with a desire to kill Liz and she said it is here or not at all...

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Lynn,

I think you are looking at it from Jack's perspective not Liz's perspective. Unlike Polly and Annie, Liz is aware of two previous murders. Add Tabram to the mix. If you were in Liz's shoes, would you really want to go off to a dark, secluded place with a man that you had never met or would you prefer to do business in a place where help was close at hand?

c.d.

I think youve hit upon one of the very reasons he was successful getting his next victim when it was clear someone was out there killing such women.... he seems to have selected in 80% of his attributed murders by their circumstances.....they were homeless each night unless they earned their doss.

Polly's alcoholism contributed to her death because she earned and drank her bed away a few times, Annie had the disadvantage of having to earn while feeling ill and Kate was penniless and hungover at 1am without a bed.

For the street Unfortunates the nightly risks were weighed against their state of hunger, need for shelter or booze, or perhaps food or clothing for their children in some cases. Its not like they made choices...the only choice they made is to survive.

In that context its important to recognize that Liz Stride had earned slightly more than her bed costs for a night by 5pm that day, and she chose not to reserve the bed with it, and as much as stated she would not be returning that night,...and Mary Jane's name was on the lease to room 13, so despite her arrears she could feel fairly certain of a bed each night.... for the time being.

Best regards

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Having enough money to meet your needs for a day or two does not make you wealthy nor does it remove the fears of the future.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

Having enough money to meet your needs for a day or two does not make you wealthy nor does it remove the fears of the future.

c.d.

You would be surprised then by the lifestyles and attitudes of the desperately poor.....my exposure comes from owning and operating an acting Studio in Vancouver's Gastown, adjacent to Vancouver's nefarious East End, and daily seeing and getting to know some of the locals....they slept in doorways or wherever they could avoid being attacked or kicked out of. Im not proud admitting I just did what I could by giving them money when they really needed some "bigger" help.....but my point is that a pocket with money in it for one day brings them a sense of security few of us would understand... for that day. Perhaps the next. They dont think beyond that money cd. When its there, all else is forgotten...thats why you see cabs being called to slums on the day that Social Assistance cheques are issued, they feel justified spending money they may desperately want later that week just to get around, ....because they so rarely have any and now they do.

Liz Stride could have paid for her bed and left the lodging house with 2d in her skirt and in exactly the same attire and we wouldnt need to wonder what she had in mind for that Saturday night....maybe some tricks, but surely she would earn a bit so she could drink. The bed would be paid for.

But she didnt, did she? She said she would not be returning that night, she left with her 6d and she was found dead....and sober.

All the best

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

The problem for Liz and all prostitutes is that they are unsure of how much they are going to earn in a particular evening. There might be occasions when they earned nothing or next to nothing. With all due respect to the people you have dealt with, we know nothing of Liz's mindset. Maybe she felt like a millionaire with not a care in the world. Maybe she wanted to buy some new clothes and needed money. We simply don't know. We do know however that she was a prostitute. We do know that she was standing by herself late at night. Can we say with 100% certaintly that she would have passed on an offer from a customer?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

The problem for Liz and all prostitutes is that they are unsure of how much they are going to earn in a particular evening. There might be occasions when they earned nothing or next to nothing. With all due respect to the people you have dealt with, we know nothing of Liz's mindset. Maybe she felt like a millionaire with not a care in the world. Maybe she wanted to buy some new clothes and needed money. We simply don't know. We do know however that she was a prostitute. We do know that she was standing by herself late at night. Can we say with 100% certaintly that she would have passed on an offer from a customer?

c.d.

No, of course we cant.....all we can do is to piece together all that we do know about her on that particular day and from that try to deduce what her intentions may have been that night.

I do know that she died sober, her clothing was untouched so if she earned there was no money on her and it appears she didnt have her pockets rifled...and she has cachous and a flower on her "good evening wear", which included a skirt that just barely showed her boots.

Best regards cd

[Archaic]

Minty Fresh Breath

If Liz was feeling threatened or uncomfortable, why would she have taken out the Cachous to, I presume, freshen her breath?

Hello, Icarus; welcome to the forums.

Sometimes when I am pondering Liz's cachous I remember an old TV commercial for Certs breath-mints:
A young woman is standing around with friends, sees a hunky man approaching and says "Here comes BS Man- quick, give me a mint!"

(Actually she says some other male name, but I always substitute 'Jack' or 'BS Man'.)

It's possinble that the cahous had been purchased earlier by Liz. It's also possible that the killer himself handed the cachous to her as a little "gift" whose real purpose was to distract her and occupy her hands for a moment so he could blitz her.

Liz has shown that she cared about being fresh and tidy, and given the poor hygienic conditions of the day, I'm sure pretty much everybody could have used a breath mint!

Liz was missing a number of teeth and had made up extravagant stories about the Princess Alice disaster to explain their absence, so she must have been self-conscious about the bad state of her mouth.
Advanced tooth decay not only causes bad breath, but also creates an unpleasant taste in one's mouth, so it makes sense that she liked mints.

Liz would be even more likely to take the mints if she was expecting a "date" or intended to go inside. After all, she is trying to "tidy up" and regain her composure; a packet of cachous would have seemed perfectly harmless. In fact, she might have taken the offered packet automatically & then been killed so quickly that she scarcely had time to think.

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

quick

Hello Archaic.

"Liz would be even more likely to take the mints if she was expecting a "date" or intended to go inside. After all, she is trying to "tidy up" and regain her composure; a packet of cachous would have seemed perfectly harmless. In fact, she might have taken the offered packet automatically & then been killed so quickly that she scarcely had time to think."

Yes. In fact, she HAD to be killed quickly in order not to spill the cachous. Now, does she obtain them near the gates where she is (supposedly) soliciting? Then, as you've pointed out before, she needs to be dragged 9 or 10 feet towards the half open kitchen door so everything will work out forensically.

The best.
LC