JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Yes it was a pack of vanishing curtain rods George. You can continue to believe that but I’ll stay on planet Earth thanks.

"Repeating something doesn’t make it true.

You aren’t debating. You're making one or two sentence comments. If that’s all that you can manage. Fine."

[Herlock Sholmes]

So we’ve descended to this again George. Fine. It’s up to you. All that I’ve done is made a comment that is entirely true. The thread is for discussion and not just wholesale cutting and pasting of long articles. But that’s what it’s descended to. Unsurprisingly, because I’ve said it, you have to have a dig.

Hardly a surprise.

[Fiver]

Once you accept the Autopsy photos are fake as we have shown you all along, then you can move on .

You have yet to provide any evidence that the autopsy was fake, let alone a motive for doing it.

The Army, the Navy, the Secret Service, and JFK's personal physician all attended the autopsy. You haven't provided a credible motive for any of them to want to kill JFK, let alone for all of them to work together.

[Fiver]

Let's address an easy one.



The Warren Commission Report Chapter 3 Page 81:
The rifle is 40.2 inches long and weighs 8 pounds.

It is an easy one, but not in the way that you think.

Klein's Sporting Goods had run out of the 36-inch long (91 cm) Carcano model M91 TS carbines and sent Oswald a 40.1-inch Carcano M91/38.

[Fiver]

The only Radiologist involved in Xrays was a Dr Ebersole. He could not explain some of the metal fragment discrepancies from 1963 compared to 1968. It brought up the question of whether the xrays could be easily double exposed and there are xrays using scissors and other objects used to show how easy it was to do. The fragments in question were in the back of the skull. ( Not a magic bullet)

Do you even understand the Single Bullet Theory? It went through JFK's neck, not his skull.

Nothing like what you describe appears in Dr Ebersole's statement to the HSCA.

[Fiver]

There is also a discrepancy in the 4 bullet shells found by Tippit. From a revolver that did not eject the cartridge.

There is no discrepancy.

Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do? First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

[FISHY1118]

Repeating nonsense achieves nothing. Except boredom.

Oh Good, your ignoring ''ACTUAL EVIDENCE'' , thats always a good sign.

[FISHY1118]

I’m signing out for the night. It’s like being on Fantasy Island.

Thats probably because your reading a fantasy novel called the the WARREN COMMISSION REPORT.

[FISHY1118]

You have yet to provide any evidence that the autopsy was fake, let alone a motive for doing it.

The Army, the Navy, the Secret Service, and JFK's personal physician all attended the autopsy. You haven't provided a credible motive for any of them to want to kill JFK, let alone for all of them to work together.

Well see right theres your problem fiver , i have provided mulitple expert medical opinion and eyewitness accounts of the fist size hole in the back of Jfks head .

Tell me, how many of those Army , Navy Secret Service agents, were in Trauma room 1 on the day of the assassination ?. Which one of them on that day contradicted all of the Parkland Drs , Clint Hills ond countless others observations that there was large hole in the back of jfks head ?

[Fiver]

One thing I looked at was Zapruder Frames 245. The first hit and frame 313 the head shot. At 18.3 frames per second there was a 4.5 second spread. An expert could have pulled that off but with angles and car movement who really knows if Oswald had that capability.

Why are you looking at Frame 245? JFK has clearly already started reaching for his throat by Frame 225. That gives minimum of 4.8 seconds between the two bullets..

Pen and Teller managed 3 in 3.45 seconds. HSC testing showed 3 shots could have been fired as fast as 3.3 seconds.

[GBinOz]

So we’ve descended to this again George. Fine. It’s up to you. All that I’ve done is made a comment that is entirely true. The thread is for discussion and not just wholesale cutting and pasting of long articles. But that’s what it’s descended to. Unsurprisingly, because I’ve said it, you have to have a dig.

Hardly a surprise.

Are you suggesting that I am descending to quoting your posts? If you are making a comment that you claim is true, support it with one witness that testified that the parcel they saw in the possession of Oswald was of sufficient size to contain a rifle. I don't see that I was cutting and pasting long articles - just a few pictures and short quotes presenting the facts. You suggest I am having a dig because I ask you to comply with the standard you impose on others? Your objection is noted. If debate is to be attained, dismissal without evidence needs to be restrained.

[Fiver]

Warren Commission Report Chapter 3 Page 81:
The minimum length broken down is 34.8 inches, the length of the wooden stock.

The only two people who saw the package testified that it was too short to contain a rifle.

Let's look at actual testimony.

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.

And Randle and Frazier are not the only ones who saw Oswald with a large package.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

[GBinOz]

There is no discrepancy.

Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do? First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

So the proposal is that the perpetrator deliberately emptied the shells from a revolver and threw them on the ground for the police to use as evidence. But the first report was that the handgun involved was a 38 Auto, as were the shell casings, which would have been ejected and would have had to be picked up to avoid them being used as evidence. A 38ACP (auto) cannot be chambered in a 38 special revolver, and vice-versa.

[GBinOz]

Let's look at actual testimony.

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.

And Randle and Frazier are not the only ones who saw Oswald with a large package.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

WC Report Chapter 4 Page 133:
Frazier and Mrs. Randle testified that the bag which Oswald was carrying was approximately 27 or 28 inches long, whereas the wooden stock of the rifle, which is its largest component, measured 34.8 inches.

Frazier stated that Oswald held the package by cupping it in his hand and that it fitted comfortably under his armpit. I previously asked that this be tested by posters and a report made, but so far no answer is the stern reply.

Hasn't Mr Dougherty been regularly included on Herlock's "idiot" list? What is the definition of the hearsay of "a fairly good-sized package" that Dougherty himself completely failed to notice?

[FISHY1118]

More ' ''ACTUAL EVIDENCE''




Mr. BALL. Didn't he ( Oswald ) say that he had seen a rifle at the building ?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes sir; he told me that he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at. ( 4 H 214 )

The Warren Commission concluded that two Dallas Sheriff's Deputies and a Deputy Constable who identified the rifle found on the sixth floor were mistaken in their identification of it as a 7.65 Mauser.

The "misidentifcation" was blamed on Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman who was first to identify it. The Commission said:

"Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range... thought it was a Mauser ... [and eventually] police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle." ( Report 645-646 )

The Commission never considered that more than one rifle had been found in the building. They, as well as researchers over the decades, have considered the identification of the rifle found on the sixth floor as a Mauser just a simple error.
But other evidence indicates that might not be the case.

Wednesday, November 20, 1963 : a Mauser in the building
But the evidence may say otherwise because two days before the assassination an employee in the building, Warren Caster, brought two rifles into the building, one a single shot .22 ( a Christmas gift for his son ) and the other, a 30.06 Mauser that had been sporterized.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour.
Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?
Mr. CASTER. They were my guns.
Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they?
Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser. ( 7 H 387 )

William Shelley handled the .22 rifle Caster brought into the building that Wednesday and described the 30.06 in testimony:

Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too---there was, wasn't there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06. ( 7 H 390 )

November 22, 1963: An imported 30.06 in the window
Assassination witness Arnold Rowland was standing across the street from the TSBD and saw a man in the sixth floor window. He described the rifle he saw in the hands of the man:

Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have?
Mr. ROWLAND - No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?
Mr. ROWLAND - That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import. ( 2 H 170 )

An Argentine rifle
In a June 1964 interview with KSFO in San Francisco, Sgt. Gerald Hill said that he was told by another officer that the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD "was made in Argentina".




So this evidence indicates that Caster's deer rifle was a sporterized version of an foreign-made rifle converted to a 30.06 and the rifle found on the sixth floor was made in Argentina. A witness who saw the rifle in the hands of the man in the window described it as an imported 30.06 deer rifle.

The Argentine 7.65 Mauser
In those days, one of the most sought after rifles to convert to a 30.06 was the model 91 7.65 Argentine Mauser. The Model 91 was an exceptionally accurate weapon and in its sporterized version, it left 10 or 12 inches of barrel beyond the end of the wooden stock.





A sporterized rifle firing at the President is what witness James Worrell described. He was standing in front of the TSBD when the shooting started and at the sound of the first shot he said he looked up and saw "12 inches of a gun barrel sticking out of a window of the building".




The 12" barrel he described could not have been belonged to the Mannlicher-Carcano ( CE 139 ), whose barrel only extended a few inches beyond the stock.






Of course, this account of Worrell's never made it to the 26 volumes. By his March, 1964 testimony, the 12 inches of barrel had changed to 4 inches of barrel and 2 inches of wooden stock for a total of only 6 inches. ( 2 H 193 )


In light of all this evidence, we must reconsider the descriptions given by the Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman and Sheriff's Deputies Eugene Boone and Roger Craig of the rifle found on the sixth floor.
Warren Commission supporters have always relied on two things: 1.) that Seymour Weitzman was mistaken and 2.) that Roger Craig was a xxxx.

But there is no documentation by any of the deputies who were present when the rifle on the sixth floor was discovered that listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano or being "6.5 cal." or "Made in Italy".

Deputy Boone is credited with finding the rifle, but his report submitted to the sheriff's department indicates that he found the rifle at 1:22 pm and it "appeared to be a 7.65 Mauser with a telescopic sight".


https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/upl...one_mauser.jpg

Police officers are trained to be precise when describing evidence in their reports. How Boone could be so precise with the time he found the rifle and be so wrong as to the type of rifle is puzzling.
Boone also testified that Capt. Will Fritz identified the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, a fact that Fritz, in his testimony denied.




Then there is the question if the deputies didn't inspect the rifle, why did they choose the caliber of 7.65 ? Did they pick it out of thin air and if so, why ? Why not 7.63 ? Or 7.92 ? Or even the 6.5 that was supposedly on the rifle ? If they were describing the rifle by its action only, why didn't they just describe it as a Mauser ? Where did the 7.65 come from ?

Did Fritz lie about calling it a Mauser ? Was Boone just repeating what he heard Fritz say ?
The Commission never asked. They accepted Fritz's denial and concluded the deputies were mistaken.

Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman arrived at the time Fritz was examining the rifle. In his sworn affidavit, Weitzman described the rifle found on the sixth floor as a "7.65 Mauser bolt action."



But this is not a case of mistaken indentity. Deputy Roger Craig told Lincoln Carle in 1976 that not only did Weitzman identify the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, he walked over to it and POINTED to the Mauser label on the rifle.



Weitzman suffered over the years for his honesty. He was hounded by the press and even researchers about his "mistake" until he finally gave in and "admitted" he was wrong about the rifle.

But one Deputy did not waver and maintained to his dying day that the rifle found on the sixth floor was a 7.65 Mauser.

That Deputy was Roger Craig.

In this 1976 documentary, Two Men in Dallas, Craig describes to Lincoln Carle the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the rifle.



The news outlets took the deputies' description of the rifle as being a Mauser and ran with it.




In fact, the "corrected" identifcation of the murder weapon as being a Mannlicher-Carcano didn't hit the airwaves until Saturday afternoon, after documents had been "found" connecting the Depository rifle to "A.Hidell."