Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Yes Debs, and Henry could have joined up in Dublin. Even if he did visit Mary once, it could have been from a deployment in England. This so-called nickname "Ianto/Yanto" is Welsh, but there's no reason to think Henry was ever in Wales. Thats a modern assumption.

The 2nd battalion Scots Guards were in London from Jul 87 ( Barnett met Mary earlier that same year)and left for Dublin in Sept. 88. Are you saying part of the 2nd Battalion could have been in Dublin before Sept 88, while the rest were in London, Jon? This is a genuine question I am curious about as looking at the records, so far, all seem to have been in London in 87 and 88 and Dublin in late 88. If the battalion wasn't split then it would seem odd to enlist in Dublin in Sept 88 and instantly get leave to visit England before the beginning of November 88.

Stop with the Ianto!!! It isn't my argument.
You don't know that Henry also living in Wales is a modern assumption,you have no idea what was assumed by the police in 1888 if they had the same info from Barnett that is left to us. Barnett's statements are not specific either way.

And you think they couldn't find him? What reason do we have to suppose the police didn't locate him? If Henry was deployed in Dublin they may have wired their contemporaries at the Dublin Met. to make enquiries on their behalf?

They could have, what are you assuming should have happened that you think didn't?

I would expect something to be mentioned in the files if they had contacted her family, but we don't have one measley mention. Tracing family and associates is important in a murder investigation, it wasn't as simple as wanting to find someone to pay for the funeral. I would assume that the Met. police were at least as thorough in tracing MJKs family as they had been in other murder cases.

Just suppose for a moment that brother Henry did show up for her funeral, who do you think he is required to announce his presence to, and why?

Like I said above, it was a murder investigation. I've seen other Victorian murder files where practically the whole family tree of the victim was traced and recorded in case the background of the victim held any clues.

Debs, I did spend some time researching the Zulu Wars.
In the 19th century, something of the order of 1 in every 100 men enlisted under a false name.
Example, the last survivor from Rorkes Drift who carried the VC medal was pvt. John Williams, but his real name was John Fielding. The military did not ask for your real name, but you kept your chosen name for the duration of your service.

But how common is that compared to the number of Whitechapel unfortunates who gave false names?

Anyway, you still haven't answered my earlier question on why we have no mention in the inquest reporting in the papers of what name Henry was known as by his comrades in the Scots Guards. You claim it's significant they don't mention 'Johnto' as recorded by Abberline , but neither do any of the papers report that Henry's comrades called him John. These comrades are not mentioned at all.

[Wickerman]

Although, Jon, it wasn't just one brother Henry in the army,it was specifically a brother in the 2nd battalion Scots Guards.

Yes Debs, and Henry could have joined up in Dublin. Even if he did visit Mary once, it could have been from a deployment in England. This so-called nickname "Ianto/Yanto" is Welsh, but there's no reason to think Henry was ever in Wales. Thats a modern assumption.

Mary only mentions her father & herself in Wales, and the fact she associated with a cousin in Cardiff. I would speculate the Kelly's might have moved to Wales to stay with their relatives in the Cardiff/Carmarthen area.

This information from Barnett would undoubtedly have resulted in the Metropolitan Police making inquiries with the Scots Guards and having access to their records.

And you think they couldn't find him? What reason do we have to suppose the police didn't locate him? If Henry was deployed in Dublin they may have wired their contemporaries at the Dublin Met. to make enquiries on their behalf?

It can't be as simple as her brother was named Henry Kelly (or even John) or the police would have located him immediately?

They could have, what are you assuming should have happened that you think didn't?

Just suppose for a moment that brother Henry did show up for her funeral, who do you think he is required to announce his presence to, and why?
And if he did, who do you think is going to be pressured to pay for this funeral?

Debs, I did spend some time researching the Zulu Wars.
In the 19th century, something of the order of 1 in every 100 men enlisted under a false name.
Example, the last survivor from Rorkes Drift who carried the VC medal was pvt. John Williams, but his real name was John Fielding. The military did not ask for your real name, but you kept your chosen name for the duration of your service.

So, don't be too surprised if you cannot locate a Henry/John Kelly who fits the profile, it really does not mean anything is suspicious. Its just another stumbling block the real world throws at us.

If Henry enlisted under another name, he would never have known about sis being murdered, at least not through official channels.

All the best, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Garry

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, (including of course the necessity to "tie up" Johnto, as far as this may be possible), do we not, though, have the "City Missionary" report in the Daily News of 12th November 1888, which is at least suggestive of some limited contact with family members in Ireland?

My own inclination would be towards a combination of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" family correspondence...after all, there doesn't seem to be any real evidence either way, so far, to say where they all were by 1888....

Respectfully

Dave

[Garry Wroe]

According to McCarthy, Mary used to receive letters from her mother in Ireland, Limerick(?).

He believed as much, Jon, but since McCarthy never saw the actual letters we have no proof that ‘Mrs Kelly’ either remained in Ireland or corresponded with her daughter.

We have no clear indication how the family was split, but taking these 2nd hand sources at face value, it appears the family had separated.

Again, this is an assumption based upon the unsupported conjecture of Jack McCarthy. There is no evidence of a fragmented family. Indeed, if there was any truth in Kelly’s biographical claims, her sister lived and worked with an aunt, which would imply that the aunt was a part of the relocation from Ireland to Wales. If so, the family appears to have stuck together rather than fractured as you are suggesting.

Maybe the family was not complete in Wales. Did they have relatives in Wales, is this why the father takes his eldest(?) daughter and moves to find work while living with relatives?

The evidence, Jon, for what it’s worth, is that the entire Kelly family relocated to Wales.

There are so many possibilities I don't think it advisable to invent scenario's until all possible alternate solutions have been pursued.

In which case, Jon, you might care to take your own advice. The simple fact of the matter is that the letters received from Ireland could not have come from Mary Jane’s mother. Even if we disregard the reality that she was almost certainly living in Wales at the time, the correspondent knew Kelly’s name and address. Had this been her mother, she would have come forward the moment she heard of her daughter’s death. She didn’t. And nor did anyone else. Thus it is highly unlikely that any family member knew her address or even the area of London in which she was living.

You appear to believe that myself and others are indulging in wild speculation. Not so. The Irish correspondence is a reality. Since it couldn’t have emanated from a family member, it must have come from someone else. Thus any research into Johnto of the Scots Guards is not only legitimate, it is essential if we are ever to make sense of what was Kelly’s demonstrably spurious personal history.

[Garry Wroe]

It's certainly a possibility, Debra, but a slender one. I've long been convinced that Kelly was living under as assumed name and that much of what she told Barnett and others was fictional. It's not just that her family failed to come forward (which is strange in itself), but not a single one of her childhood associates, teachers or neighbours recognized her from the biographical information published at the time of her death. Thus her family name couldn't have been Kelly and there is virtually no chance that the real Mary Jane will ever be identified.

[Debra A]

Many thanks, Debra. It's a shame, though, that the evidence is indicative of Johnto being a paramour rather than a family member. With the Johnston lead it might have been possible to identify the real Kelly. Still, maybe some day.

I think it's one of those interesting things to keep in mind, anyway, Garry. Perhaps something will come up in the future, who knows?

[Debra A]

Which in itself is interesting for obvious reasons. ie Unless he's a Scots Guards Enthusiast (extremely dubious!) how does he know...only likely answer...Mary told him, which comes close to proving at least part of his testimony. (I'm sure I heard or read that somewhere before, incidentally, and wouldn't want you to think I'm claiming it's an original thought!)

Dave

Hi Dave,
I suppose he could possibly have read about their move to Ireland in the papers the same way we can today? The 2nd Battalion had been in London from c July 87 to Sept. 88, so their move to Dublin was widely reported and they left with maybe a small amount of ceremony I would guess?
If MJK had already told Barnett about her brother in the Scots Guards, Barnett may have just spotted and remembered the news in the papers as it would have been both relevant and interesting news for MJK?

[Debra A]

According to McCarthy, Mary used to receive letters from her mother in Ireland, Limerick(?).
According to Barnett the father & Mary ended up in Wales.
One brother, Henry, was in the army.
One sister who travelled the markets, where, in Ireland?
And six brothers, where, also in Ireland?

We have no clear indication how the family was split, but taking these 2nd hand sources at face value, it appears the family had separated.
There is no reason to assume the entire family moved to Wales, especially when we are living in times where men were known to travel to find work.
Mary, possibly the eldest also went with her father to Wales, to be betrothed to a collier?

We might be failing to find confirmation of the Kelly family existing as a whole in either Ireland or Wales, because, once again, we are assuming too much.
Maybe the family was not complete in Wales. Did they have relatives in Wales, is this why the father takes his eldest(?) daughter and moves to find work while living with relatives?

There are so many possibilities I don't think it advisable to invent scenario's until all possible alternate solutions have been pursued.

Regards, Jon S.

Although, Jon, it wasn't just one brother Henry in the army,it was specifically a brother in the 2nd battalion Scots Guards.
This information from Barnett would undoubtedly have resulted in the Metropolitan Police making inquiries with the Scots Guards and having access to their records. It can't be as simple as her brother was named Henry Kelly (or even John) or the police would have located him immediately?

[Wickerman]

According to McCarthy, Mary used to receive letters from her mother in Ireland, Limerick(?).
According to Barnett the father & Mary ended up in Wales.
One brother, Henry, was in the army.
One sister who travelled the markets, where, in Ireland?
And six brothers, where, also in Ireland?

We have no clear indication how the family was split, but taking these 2nd hand sources at face value, it appears the family had separated.
There is no reason to assume the entire family moved to Wales, especially when we are living in times where men were known to travel to find work.
Mary, possibly the eldest also went with her father to Wales, to be betrothed to a collier?

We might be failing to find confirmation of the Kelly family existing as a whole in either Ireland or Wales, because, once again, we are assuming too much.
Maybe the family was not complete in Wales. Did they have relatives in Wales, is this why the father takes his eldest(?) daughter and moves to find work while living with relatives?

There are so many possibilities I don't think it advisable to invent scenario's until all possible alternate solutions have been pursued.

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

Fourteen men with the surname Johnston or variations come up in an initial search of men attested to the Scots Guards (all Battalions) between 1868-1888, including a Henry and a Harry.
I will have to look through the whole file on each of them to be able to narrow down which of them were actually serving in the 2nd Battalion in 1888.

Many thanks, Debra. It's a shame, though, that the evidence is indicative of Johnto being a paramour rather than a family member. With the Johnston lead it might have been possible to identify the real Kelly. Still, maybe some day.

[Cogidubnus]

Incidently, I don't see any allusion to a timeline in Barnett's words, and he does tell us himself that the regiment was in Ireland.

Which in itself is interesting for obvious reasons. ie Unless he's a Scots Guards Enthusiast (extremely dubious!) how does he know...only likely answer...Mary told him, which comes close to proving at least part of his testimony. (I'm sure I heard or read that somewhere before, incidentally, and wouldn't want you to think I'm claiming it's an original thought!)

Dave

[Wickerman]

Also, if you look back at my earlier posts you will see I don't go with the 'Ianto' idea either, I also mentioned the pronunciation would be totally different for Abberline to have written it down as Johnto from Barnett's dictation, so I have no idea where you got the idea I was championing the 'Ianto' version over 'John too'.

Yes I now see where you might think that. Its not what I was meaning. In responding to you that "Ianto" is being championed, I was not meaning by you specifically. I could have worded it better.

If it was close to Mary's time of death then it couldn't be a serving 2nd B Scots Guard as the 2nd Battalion left London for Dublin on the 6th September 1888 to take over from the 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards stationed there.

Incidently, I don't see any allusion to a timeline in Barnett's words, and he does tell us himself that the regiment was in Ireland.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Carthy sighting

Hello Debs. Thanks. I think that is one of the best MJK's sighting out there. That "gentleman" with her is extremely interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I am leaning towards the opinion offered by others, that Johnto probably was a lover rather than a brother. Perhaps he may even be the man MJK took to sleep at Mrs Carthy's one night if this 'brother' really did visit her in Whitechapel?

Hi Debs

Belatedly, yes that was my feeling too, hence my query...in particular the London connection (though he may've just spent some duty time or leave there). It's still all a bit "thin" at this time distance though isn't it? (Of course just about everything is though really!). Must drive you mad sometimes!

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Hello Debs.

Splendid hypothesis. Has a general time frame for that event been established? The wording makes it look fairly close to her TOD.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
I'd have to check back as I'm not entirely sure.
If it was close to Mary's time of death then it couldn't be a serving 2nd B Scots Guard as the 2nd Battalion left London for Dublin on the 6th September 1888 to take over from the 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards stationed there.