Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

bureaucratic

Hello Dave. Perhaps I say that based on my bureaucratic experience. If I give another student's work to a student--even though a married partner--I could be boiled in oil. So I have learned the rules and to be efficient.

Heck, I even dream in triplicate. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

...pulchrum est!

Hi Lynn

Cicero isn't it?

Of course it's possible McCarthy might've held back Mary's post specifically for her...but if he saw Joe, "en passant" would he worry too much over the formalities?

Dunno

Dave

[lynn cates]

suum quique

Hello Dave. Hmm, I suppose there were no strictures then? One might be in a spot of trouble today for being indiscriminate with "handing out" another's material.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Possibly not. But perhaps neither would I scrutinise the address?

Not even when McCarthy or Bowyer pass you the letter and say "letter for Mary" ?

(Only possibly not...does she know this Lynn? )

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

open sesame

Hello Dave.

"That's a very good way to terminally fall out with a partner Lynn...would YOU open a letter addressed to your other half?"

Possibly not. But perhaps neither would I scrutinise the address?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

So why bother to disguise the letter? After all, if he could read the address and inquire, certainly he could open the letter and read it?

That's a very good way to terminally fall out with a partner Lynn...would YOU open a letter addressed to your other half?

Preparing the way with a "brother Johnto" story might actually reduce the risk of his opening their correspondence anyway...

While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

Hi Bridewell,

Is that the Belfast in the north or another one in Limerick? The accents are totally different of course...Many years ago I had a pub aquaintance who, with his brother, came from the south west of Ireland, and even when for politeness sake, they conversed in English, it was as much as I could do to make out perhaps one word in three...

Interestingly, he was known as Seany, which he and his brother pronounced far more like Johnny (with just a trace of softness to the J)...

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

I've just found this posted by a Wikipedia user who has "Jonto" as a user name:

OK - my name is not actually John, Johnny, or anything related. While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

[lynn cates]

subterfuge

Hello Dave. Not a bad idea, but I'm still not clear on why her subterfuge. Barnett seemed aware of:

1. How she earned her livelihood.

2. That she was fond of another man.

So why bother to disguise the letter? After all, if he could read the address and inquire, certainly he could open the letter and read it?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Assuming (dangerous game I know!) that Mary were in a relationship of some form with a man known as Johnto, perhaps they were in correspondence, and she may then have primed Barnett with the "my brother Johnto" story to explain away the letters...

We know from the City Missionary that Mary could read and write and was in correspondence with her mother, so additional letters from other "family members" may well be plausible...

Passing thought...

Dave

[lynn cates]

contrived

Hello Chris.

"If this nickname Johnto was not given and used within the family, but was specifically, according to Barnett, the name used among his army comrades, how would Mary Kelly have known this unless she were visited by her brother or at least in correspondence with him?"

What if it were contrived? Of course, that would be an odd thing to include in a made up story.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

The original source of the nickname of Kelly's brother is Barnett, and that in only one of the two major sources of his evidence from the time of the murder. The account of Kelly's background derives from two documents
1) Barnett's police statement made on the day of the murder and
2) His inquest testimony given on the 12th November
It is in the first of these that the mention of the brother's nickname is made. In his police statement, Barnett affirmed:
"she had a brother named Henry serving in 2nd. Battn. Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrades as Johnto, and I believe the regiment is now in Ireland"
In the inquest testimony made three days later he is quoted as testifying:
"She also said she had six brothers at home and one in the army, one was Henry Kelly."
So in his inquest evidence, as reported, there are two differences of emphasis:
1) There is no mention of the nickname Johnto and
2) Barnett says one brother was Henry, and one was in the army but does not categorically identify the two as one and the same as he did in his police statement.
One ancillary question is, of course, this:-
If this nickname Johnto was not given and used within the family, but was specifically, according to Barnett, the name used among his army comrades, how would Mary Kelly have known this unless she were visited by her brother or at least in correspondence with him?
Chris

[curious]

Well, Dave-There's John too (although this has been slightly revised I see) which would mean Abberline couldn't differentiate between too and to (as some can't)but, crucially, he also squashed it up to make his misspelt John too into Johnto accidentally making it look like name.
Then, on the other hand we have the fact that Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on.

It's a toss up, just like the grapes.

Hi, Debs,
I think your research is amazing, and I always learn from you -- so hang in there and keep thinking.

So, if Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on, and MJK's brother was known to his comrades by Jonto, are you thinking it is possible that Kelly's real name was Johnston?

OR are you thinking that she was Kelly, but she had (I'm guessing) younger brothers named Johnston, meaning that her mother remarried and had children by a second husband?

[Garry Wroe]

I'm inclined to think the solution is a straight forward spelling issue ...

Which would appear to be the most logical explanation were it not for the fact that at least one newspaper, independently of Abberline, also made reference to 'Johnto'. I'm fairly sure that it was The Times, though I haven't as yet been able to locate it in the Press Reports. But I recall it distinctly because I wondered at the time whether the report had confused 'Johnto' with 'John too'.

[Wickerman]

....I'm really just defending my tiny little corner of this weird world and my right to an opinion just as much as the next bloke with a beard, .....

Hey Debs!
No need to defend anything, we're all throwing opinions into the mix, your's is just as good, and in some cases better informed than others.

(some cases)

No firm evidence either way, right?
I'm inclined to think the solution is a straight forward spelling issue, as opposed to a "Welsh/English" mix of a nickname adopted by an Irishman?, which incidently was not so described by Barnett.

All the best, Jon S.
(Ok, we don't know the family was Irish, but indications are in that direction)

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon, I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

Hi Debs.
I am well aquainted with Welsh men bearing the name Yanto/Ianto, (eye-an-toh). Are we supposed to accept "eye-an-toh" for Johnto?

I've even heard it pronounced on tv with respect to a couple of Welsh rugby(?) players. But in each case they are "Eye-an-toh" not anything like Johnto.

"Eye" sounds nothing like "Dj", so if Barnett said "eye", Abberline will write "I", not a "J" (Dj). Phonetically they are not a match.

Sorry Debs, I don't buy it.

All the best, Jon S.