Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

It would certainly be interesting if someone could identify a Johnston (or some variant thereof) who was serving in the Scots Guards during the relevant timeframe, especially a Johnston who was married at the time and who might therefore have been reluctant to admit to his relationship with Mary Jane.

Fourteen men with the surname Johnston or variations come up in an initial search of men attested to the Scots Guards (all Battalions) between 1868-1888, including a Henry and a Harry.
I will have to look through the whole file on each of them to be able to narrow down which of them were actually serving in the 2nd Battalion in 1888.

[lynn cates]

hypothesis

Hello Debs.

"Perhaps he may even be the man MJK took to sleep at Mrs Carthy's one night if this 'brother' really did visit her in Whitechapel?"

Splendid hypothesis. Has a general time frame for that event been established? The wording makes it look fairly close to her TOD.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

My main interest is not in researching Johnstons but that Jonto is linked to that surname as a nickname.

Me too.

I am leaning towards the opinion offered by others, that Johnto probably was a lover rather than a brother. Perhaps he may even be the man MJK took to sleep at Mrs Carthy's one night if this 'brother' really did visit her in Whitechapel?

It would certainly be interesting if someone could identify a Johnston (or some variant thereof) who was serving in the Scots Guards during the relevant timeframe, especially a Johnston who was married at the time and who might therefore have been reluctant to admit to his relationship with Mary Jane.

[Bridewell]

Gibberish?!

But it's really not about anyone stealing anyone else's thunder, and if that's the way my post came across rather than genuinely wanting you to post anything further that you find seeing as you are obviously interested in the same line of research as me, then either there's a strange new breed of attitude afoot or I really do speak jibberish in my posts.

Debra, you never speak gibberish. I was just a little annoyed at myself for having missed what you'd posted.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

I think daylight is gradually dawning...

Now, to get to the crunch, the interesting question (and I just bet you've got an answer already!) how many Johnstons/Johnstones, and how many likely to be, say, London-based?

(I'd guess quite a few as, alas, it's not an uncommon name)

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave, yes it is a very common name and they are all over the place. There are Irish Johns(t)ons living in Wales and working in the iron industry and with daughters named Mary Jane even!
But researching the name Johnston in connection with MJK would be pointless unless perhaps there was a family that obviously fitted all the same criteria as the MJK's Kellys. Other than that, if MJK lied about her name she may have lied about everything, or even just some small part. Either way it becomes impossible to 'weigh up' any Johnston family finds?

My main interest is not in researching Johnstons but that Jonto is linked to that surname as a nickname.
I am leaning towards the opinion offered by others, that Johnto probably was a lover rather than a brother. Perhaps he may even be the man MJK took to sleep at Mrs Carthy's one night if this 'brother' really did visit her in Whitechapel?

[lynn cates]

military

Hello Debs. Thanks. That is quite plausible. Military lads and lasses are prone to do such.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Since nobody else has asked....

Hi Debs

I think daylight is gradually dawning...

Now, to get to the crunch, the interesting question (and I just bet you've got an answer already!) how many Johnstons/Johnstones, and how many likely to be, say, London-based?

(I'd guess quite a few as, alas, it's not an uncommon name)

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Ah, now the light bulb has come on. You mean like the tradition where Smith becomes Smitty?

Makes sense.

Cheers.
LC

Something like that, Lynn, kind of connected to military tradition maybe- Smith becomes Smudge, Clark is Nobby, Stride is Long even?

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

Sorry. I obviously missed the post. Didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Regards, Bridewell.

But it's really not about anyone stealing anyone else's thunder, and if that's the way my post came across rather than genuinely wanting you to post anything further that you find seeing as you are obviously interested in the same line of research as me, then either there's a strange new breed of attitude afoot or I really do speak jibberish in my posts.

[Garry Wroe]

And I would not doubt you Garry, but you will understand that this source needs to surface to help substantiate the claim one way or the other.

Agreed, Jon, but you can take it as read that it exists and is sitting in the Colindale archives for anyone who cares to look for it.

[Bridewell]

Bridewell, I mentioned the Belfast Millies and Jantos (chavs) a few pages back and wondered if like Millie, which is a 19th C,Northern Ireland but specifically Belfast term for a working class linen mill girl that has continued to present day, that Janto might also have a similar history in Belfastand have an older meaning or connection to something. Not found anything yet, but if you find anything relating to this I'd be interested in it , thanks.

Hi Debra,

Sorry. I obviously missed the post. Didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Smitty

Hello Debs. Ah, now the light bulb has come on. You mean like the tradition where Smith becomes Smitty?

Makes sense.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

And I would not doubt you Garry, but you will understand that this source needs to surface to help substantiate the claim one way or the other.

Regards, Jon S.

But in the same vein, Jon: Is there any mention at all in the inquest reporting of Mary's brother being called anything by his comrades?

Also, if you look back at my earlier posts you will see I don't go with the 'Ianto' idea either, I also mentioned the pronunciation would be totally different for Abberline to have written it down as Johnto from Barnett's dictation, so I have no idea where you got the idea I was championing the 'Ianto' version over 'John too'.

In my posts, (and bless you Curious and hallelujah! Yes, that's kind of what I think I'm wondering about, thanks for noticing )I have been trying to explore the idea of the nickname being linked to a surname and have come across several examples of men with the surname Johnston nicknamed 'Jonto' or 'Janto'.

Bridewell, I mentioned the Belfast Millies and Jantos (chavs) a few pages back and wondered if like Millie, which is a 19th C,Northern Ireland but specifically Belfast term for a working class linen mill girl that has continued to present day, that Janto might also have a similar history in Belfastand have an older meaning or connection to something. Not found anything yet, but if you find anything relating to this I'd be interested in it , thanks.

[Bridewell]

Another Reference

I've just found this posted by a Wikipedia user who has "Jonto" as a user name:

OK - my name is not actually John, Johnny, or anything related. While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

Hi All,

I've done some more digging into this. The guy from whom the above is taken refers, in a link, to "spides" which are apparently the Belfast equivalent of the English "chav". I've also found this snippet on QI Talk Forum:

"Hmm I have never heard that term in my life and I have lived in Belfast my whole life but as I am a teenager I am very familiar with the spide and millie culture. There is also jonto for a spide but it seems only to be a local term as in only my mates in a 1 mile radius use it. I don't use it though. People think it is quite funny that my sister was a millie and I a "hippie" ".

If this is relevant, it doesn't look like a particularly complimentary nickname.

Regards, Bridewell

[Wickerman]

Which would appear to be the most logical explanation were it not for the fact that at least one newspaper, independently of Abberline, also made reference to 'Johnto'. I'm fairly sure that it was The Times, though I haven't as yet been able to locate it in the Press Reports. But I recall it distinctly because I wondered at the time whether the report had confused 'Johnto' with 'John too'.

And I would not doubt you Garry, but you will understand that this source needs to surface to help substantiate the claim one way or the other.

Regards, Jon S.