Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

I have had the good fortune this morning to find a very helpful council officer in Cardiff City Council. He works in the department that deals with conservation and listed buildings etc. and he informed me of the current status of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary (CRI) and its future.
I saw the pictures on the link that Archaic posted that showed derelict areas of the CRI in 2007. The chap at Cardiff City Council told me that the CRI is now covered in scaffolding and the restoration is under way. The building is owned by the Council and parts of it are still used by the local NHS trust.
The man I spoke to was extremely helpful and has offered to send me a copy of the full restoration plan which should be extremely interesting and he also offered to arrange a full tour of the restoration site if I can get to Cardiff!
The current status of the building - those parts not in use by the health trust - are now watertight and sound and parts are being mothballed until a suitable tenant can be found.
I did explain the angle of my research and the JTR connection and he was extremely interested and I promised to keep him fully apprised of my research and any developments.
Watch this space
Chris

I wonder if they still have Paul's tonsils?

Good news about the conservation/restoration plans.
You should arrange a Cardiff Hospital Job, Chris! A tour of the hospital and then a group trawl of the surviving records!
Great work, Chris.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Thanks:-)
I have just started a separate thread about the Infirmary as the recent stuff about it is confusing the excellent research by yourself (and others!!) into the Scots Guards
regards
Chris

[Debra A]

Thanks for all the great stuff on the Cardiff Infirmary everyone, love those ward pics, Chris!
And thanks for posting the details of the records available and census info, Chris.

[Chris Scott]

I have had the good fortune this morning to find a very helpful council officer in Cardiff City Council. He works in the department that deals with conservation and listed buildings etc. and he informed me of the current status of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary (CRI) and its future.
I saw the pictures on the link that Archaic posted that showed derelict areas of the CRI in 2007. The chap at Cardiff City Council told me that the CRI is now covered in scaffolding and the restoration is under way. The building is owned by the Council and parts of it are still used by the local NHS trust.
The man I spoke to was extremely helpful and has offered to send me a copy of the full restoration plan which should be extremely interesting and he also offered to arrange a full tour of the restoration site if I can get to Cardiff!
The current status of the building - those parts not in use by the health trust - are now watertight and sound and parts are being mothballed until a suitable tenant can be found.
I did explain the angle of my research and the JTR connection and he was extremely interested and I promised to keep him fully apprised of my research and any developments.
Watch this space
Chris

[Debra A]

Oh no Debs, sorry, I thought you knew. British battalions moved around on rotation. We have some units abroad in combat, some units in training at designated camps, while other units were on duty, like at the Tower. They all rotate over a period of time.

What I meant to say, in the long version is, that at some earlier rotation when the 2nd were stationed in Dublin, or elsewhere in Ireland, Henry might have joined up then. I meant it is not necessary for Henry to have journeyed to England to join up.
Also, we don't know how old he was, he may have been senior to Mary and joined up in the 1870's.

Thanks for the explanation Jon, but when you say 'unit' do you mean the Battalion was split into smaller groups that were spread around? This was my question. I understand that the different Battalions move around but I assumed they move around as one unit, so ALL the 2nd Battalion would be in Dublin at the same time? Is this not right?

The 2nd Battalion reportedly were in London 87-late 88 and then went to Dublin in Sept 88 as one Battalion. In your last sentence you talk of the 2nd Battalion being stationed in Dublin in Ireland at an earlier time, yes,that could have happened but the records I am using show exactly where someone was attested and when. I have checked men attested as far back as 1868 so far.
No one is saying 'Henry' couldn't have joined up in Ireland, but if the battalion travel together he would have come back to England in 87 and not go back to Ireland until Sept 88?

Yes, I had not forgotten you are "Jonto" (from Johns(t)on), though I fail to see how this fits in with a Henry Kelly (enlisted as Henry Johnson?). Actually that would be a neat play on words for Henry.
I was just sharing another point against this Ianto hypothesis.

I found it interesting that the nickname 'Jonto' is associated (and I gave examples) with the name john(s)ton. That's all. It kind of makes more sense in that case that Henry Kelly in the 2B Scots Guards could possibly have been someone named Johns(t)on, whether brother or lover.

The police didn't need to assume anything, it was not them who gave him the name Yanto. What I was saying is, that this Yanto (from Johnto) hypothesis is fueled by the suggestion that the whole family, including Henry, moved to Wales.
We do not have good reason to assume such a thing.

We don't need to mention Ianto in this discussion.
Mary reportedly went to Wales when young Barnett said, he mentioned other members of the family but wasn't specific about who went where, I will agree with you there. Mary had a cousin in Wales and obviously her father too. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume that the police would also think the whole Kelly family along with Henry etc. also moved to Wales, as we assume it too and look for them there.

The mother was still writing from Limerick. Barnett makes no suggestion that her sister or the other 6 brothers were anywhere outside Ireland.
Then there's Albrook who tells us that Mary wished she could go back to her family in Ireland.

Yet Barnett tells us that Mary never received communication from her family and wasn't in touch with them. Why would Mary deceive him about that? And if the letters were from Mary's mother, all Mccarthy had to do was wait until another letter arrived from Ireland and hand it in to the police...the mother and family would then be traced?


Debs

[Chris Scott]

Hi Archaic
many thanks for those links - the pics of the deserted wards etc are very atmospheric and I'm glad that the dereliction has been reversed and the building restored.
Anyone know what it is currently used for?
I also read it was used for the filming of part of a modern Doctor Who episode but I don;t know which one
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

Awww - bless :-))

[PaulB]

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

[Archaic]

Cardiff Infirmary

Hi, here are some more photos of the Infirmary.

Derelict areas of Cardiff Royal Infirmary:

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=17533

Victorian Web article about its restoration: http://www.victorianweb.org/art/arch.../seward/2.html

More old Cardiff photos: http://www.cardiffians.co.uk/penylan_roath/index.shtml

Best regards,
Archaic

[lynn cates]

depending

Hello Chris. Thanks. Contingent, as you say.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Under the circumstances I think it's possible Mary's family simply did not know...but also note your observations regarding the likely distortion of her history!

The point to avoid Dave, is the tendency to draw conclusions from what we do not know. Assuming the police made an attempt to find her relatives, they would naturally approach the military, but, as we keep saying, if Henry enlisted under a different name they would be stumped.

There were no pictures to publish to help locate her family. Without an address, assuming no letters remained, the police have no avenue to pursue.
It really is not a mystery and should not be exaggerated by anyone into being viewed as a mystery, some people are drawn towards the dramatic.

With respect inventing her past, the journey to France is perhaps the most elaborate. Whether true or not, a catholic girl is just as likely to have been born as Mary Jane as Marie Jeanette, so she may have romanticised her name to a degree.

However, there is nothing romantic about her past living in Wales and being introduced to the sleezy side of life by her cousin. From what we've read, albeit all second hand stories, she tells a pretty sad tale altogether.
There may be inaccuracies in some of these accounts but I see no reason to suggest deliberate subterfuge from Mary, though some never tire of dressing the mundane up to be mysterious.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

The 2nd battalion Scots Guards were in London from Jul 87 ( Barnett met Mary earlier that same year)and left for Dublin in Sept. 88. Are you saying part of the 2nd Battalion could have been in Dublin before Sept 88, while the rest were in London, Jon?

Oh no Debs, sorry, I thought you knew. British battalions moved around on rotation. We have some units abroad in combat, some units in training at designated camps, while other units were on duty, like at the Tower. They all rotate over a period of time.

What I meant to say, in the long version is, that at some earlier rotation when the 2nd were stationed in Dublin, or elsewhere in Ireland, Henry might have joined up then. I meant it is not necessary for Henry to have journeyed to England to join up.
Also, we don't know how old he was, he may have been senior to Mary and joined up in the 1870's.

Stop with the Ianto!!! It isn't my argument.

Yes, I had not forgotten you are "Jonto" (from Johns(t)on), though I fail to see how this fits in with a Henry Kelly (enlisted as Henry Johnson?). Actually that would be a neat play on words for Henry.
I was just sharing another point against this Ianto hypothesis.

You don't know that Henry also living in Wales is a modern assumption,you have no idea what was assumed by the police in 1888 if they had the same info from Barnett that is left to us. Barnett's statements are not specific either way.

The police didn't need to assume anything, it was not them who gave him the name Yanto. What I was saying is, that this Yanto (from Johnto) hypothesis is fueled by the suggestion that the whole family, including Henry, moved to Wales.
We do not have good reason to assume such a thing.

The mother was still writing from Limerick. Barnett makes no suggestion that her sister or the other 6 brothers were anywhere outside Ireland.
Then there's Albrook who tells us that Mary wished she could go back to her family in Ireland.

Tracing family and associates is important in a murder investigation, it wasn't as simple as wanting to find someone to pay for the funeral. I would assume that the Met. police were at least as thorough in tracing MJKs family as they had been in other murder cases.

Apparently not, or at least none of them made themselves known at the funeral. Looking for a "Kelly" in Ireland might be like looking for a "Chan" in China.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my earlier question on why we have no mention in the inquest reporting in the papers of what name Henry was known as by his comrades in the Scots Guards.
You claim it's significant they don't mention 'Johnto' as recorded by Abberline , but neither do any of the papers report that Henry's comrades called him John. These comrades are not mentioned at all.

I had not responded because I couldn't find where you say I made the claim.
I had said this is just a straight forward spelling issue, but Garry thought Johnto did appear in the press. I guess until this source re-surfaces we will remain in limbo on that issue.

All the best, Jon Smyth

[Chris Scott]

Lastly some other images of Cardiff Infirmary I found on my hard disk from when I was looking at this originally
Three early 20th century images - Gwendolen and Bute wards (Women's wards) and the operating theatre
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Hi Lynn
If the age given for Kelly at the time of death (i.e. 25 years old in Nov 1888) was correct then she would, in April 1881 (the time of the census) have been 17 or 18 years of age, depending on when her birthday fell in the year.
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Bridewell
To help below are the original listings - this gives places of birth and trade
This may help