Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Chris Scott]

Hi Bridewell
On the basis that there was no even rough match on age, place of birth etc I did not progress this list. As I said there is only one woman listed as born in Ireland, Mary Clancy, but she is listed as 50 years old.
Just on the basis of probability, the chances that Kelly's stay at the Infirmary (if it happened) coincided with the taking of the 1881 census is, in my opinion, remote.
However I would be very interested to see what you come up with
All the best
Chris

[lynn cates]

18

Hello Chris. Thanks for posting this. I presume that MJK would be about 18 at the time?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The 1881 Cardiff Infirmary Records to which I made reference in an earlier post can be found as follows:
Year 1881
Wales Census
County: Glamorgan
Borough: Cardiff
Parish: Cardiff St John
Disrict: 3a
Commencing Page 3

Address: Newport Road Infirmary, Cardiff
House Surgeon in 1881:
Thomas W Graves aged 23 born Leominster, Herefordshire
Surgeon, L.S.A., M.R.C.S.

Female Patients in 1881:
Jane Jones aged 25
Mary Morgan aged 33
Margaret Smith aged 27
Annie Roach aged 8
Letty Ann Fudge aged 7
Mary William aged 33
Phillipa Gummow aged 16
Emily Coleman aged 22
Mary Clancy aged 50
Emily scott aged 78
Eliza Nicholls aged 55
Elizabeth Griffiths aged 32
Margaret Bishop aged 48
Amy Morris aged 25
Ellen Williams aged 28
Ellen Mountign aged 33
Elizabeth Thomas aged 26
Annie Evans aged 21
Ellen Harrison aged 24
Maria Marsden aged 34
Louisa Pritchard aged 19
Elizabeth James aged 44

The only one of these listed as born in Ireland is Mary Clamcy, a washerwoman listed as born in Cork.

Hi Chris,

I'm aware that you've probably done more research on this than anyone. Have you checked out any of these names already? If not, 'll have a go over the next day or two and see what turns up.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Chris Scott]

An image from the 1890s

[Chris Scott]

http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=33&coll_id=76346&expand=

Some background:-
The history of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary began in 1822 when the Cardiff Dispensary was set up on Newport Road. This institution became the Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire Infirmary and Dispensary on its removal to new buildings in 1837. The present building facing Glossop Road opened in 1883 on land leased by the marquess of Bute and the older premises were leased, later sold to the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire. The name of the hospital changed to the Cardiff Infirmary; from 1911 to 1923, the hospital was known as the King Edward VII Hospital. In 1923 it became known as the Cardiff Royal Infirmary. Initial provision was for 100 beds but the rapid growth in the population of Cardiff and the neighbouring area necessitated major extensions in 1894-5, 1910-11 and during the First World War, and the number of beds rose to more than 500 by the time of the establishment of the National Health Service. A chapel was provided immediately after the war. The Cardiff Lunatic Asylum was officially opened in 1908, and was later renamed as the Cardiff City Mental Hospital. Between 1914-1919 the hospital was taken over by the military. Medical teaching was largely transferred to the Welsh National School in 1921 and maternity provision was transferred to the Maternity Hospital on the opposite side of Glossop Road in 1945-6. The opening of the University Hospital of Wales on the Heath in 1972 gradually reduced dependence on outmoded, cramped facilities at the Royal Infirmary, and most medical treatment had ceased by 2000. The hospital is now (2005) used as a clinic.

Records available:
Cardiff Royal Infirmary records including minute books, 1822-1944; annual reports, 1837-1970; nursing records, 1904-1964; photographs, c1890-1969; miscellaneous records, 1898-1988; records relating to the Cardiff City Mental Hospital including annual reports, 1944-1947; newspaper cuttings, 1914-1951

Anyone who fancies having a crack at this, have a look at the web link at the top of this message
Chris

[Chris Scott]

The 1881 Cardiff Infirmary Records to which I made reference in an earlier post can be found as follows:
Year 1881
Wales Census
County: Glamorgan
Borough: Cardiff
Parish: Cardiff St John
Disrict: 3a
Commencing Page 3

Address: Newport Road Infirmary, Cardiff
House Surgeon in 1881:
Thomas W Graves aged 23 born Leominster, Herefordshire
Surgeon, L.S.A., M.R.C.S.

Female Patients in 1881:
Jane Jones aged 25
Mary Morgan aged 33
Margaret Smith aged 27
Annie Roach aged 8
Letty Ann Fudge aged 7
Mary William aged 33
Phillipa Gummow aged 16
Emily Coleman aged 22
Mary Clancy aged 50
Emily scott aged 78
Eliza Nicholls aged 55
Elizabeth Griffiths aged 32
Margaret Bishop aged 48
Amy Morris aged 25
Ellen Williams aged 28
Ellen Mountign aged 33
Elizabeth Thomas aged 26
Annie Evans aged 21
Ellen Harrison aged 24
Maria Marsden aged 34
Louisa Pritchard aged 19
Elizabeth James aged 44

The only one of these listed as born in Ireland is Mary Clamcy, a washerwoman listed as born in Cork.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Yes it is quite some time ago but I'll see if I can find any notes on what I did about the Cardiff Infirmary - I know that nothing material came of it.
This is what I put in the Mary Kelly book:
"The Cardiff interlude lasted from the death of Davies until 1884, the year she allegedly moved to London. The only time reference Barnett quotes is the 8 or 9 months that Kelly spent in an infirmary, a period of time, perhaps, suspiciously close to that of a pregnancy carried to term. No record has ever been found of this stay of Kelly's, and we cannot be sure that it would have been in the main Cardiff Infirmary. The phrase that she "followed a bad life with a cousin," is intriguing. The usual interpretation is that the cousin of Kelly's was a prostitute and she led Mary into the life of an "unfortunate." That is certainly a possibility, but we must remember that the gender of the cousin is not specified. What if the cousin was a he, not a she? What if that stay in the infirmary was the result of a liaison with this cousin? Mere speculation, but as possible as the other version on the basis of such a paucity of fact."

The stay of Kelly in the Cardiff Infirmary COULD just have coincided with the 1881 census. This depends on many speculative dates. IF Kelly was 25 when she died she would have been born about 1863. IF she married, as Barnett states, when she was 16, this would have been about 1879. IF the marriage lasted somewhere about 1 to 2 years then Davies could have died in the colliery explosion in 1880 or 1881. IF the widowed Kelly then went to live in Cardiff with her cousin and stayed in the Infirmary this could have been in 1881.
A long time back I found the 1881 records for the main Cardiff infirmary and listed them, but there was, as far as I remember, no promising looking record.
regards
Chris S

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Debs. Yes, I believe so.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

It is inconceivable that not a single person made the connection between ‘their’ Mary and the woman who was murdered in Miller’s Court. Inconceivable, that is, unless Kelly had so distorted her personal history that it proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.

Hi Garry. I take your point...however the south west of Ireland in those days was still truly deep-rural...many villages or hamlets, I suspect rarely saw a newspaper, and had only a very skeletal postal service to/from a nearby town, from/to which they'd collect/deliver their mail on an as-and-when basis.

(We're on one of those cusps of Irish history...the population halves between 1841 and 1891 and huge areas are only sparcely populated....the rural areas are the worst affected and this has delayed the spread of modern services into the more traditional gaeltacht...a fuller recovery from the effects of the famine years of the 1850s is still around the corner)

Under the circumstances I think it's possible Mary's family simply did not know...but also note your observations regarding the likely distortion of her history!

When all's said and done, it'll be something of a miracle if we can ever trace MJK...but, like you, I don't think that ought to stop us trying!

All the best!

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Debs!

I've been thinking about what Curious4 said somewhere recently with regard to Mary Kelly's supposed stay in the Cardiff Infirmary for some months. Curious4 mentioned that as 'lesions' on Mary's lungs could have been healed tuberculosis then maybe that was the reason why Mary was there.

What I'm wondering is: is the Cardiff Infirmary still there, and, if so, would they have records from that time still in existence?

Love,
Mum
( Sorry dear. I'm trying to remember).

Carol

Hi Carol

Yes, I think a few people as well as curious have mentioned that Mary probably had tuberculosis in past discussions too. It seems likely doesn't it?

As far as I remember, Chris Scott inquired about the Cardiff Infirmary records a few years ago and was told that they no longer exist. Chris can correct me if I've remembered that wrong as it's going back a fair bit.


That gave me a good laugh, Carol! Thanks.

[Carol]

Hi Debs!

I've been thinking about what Curious4 said somewhere recently with regard to Mary Kelly's supposed stay in the Cardiff Infirmary for some months. Curious4 mentioned that as 'lesions' on Mary's lungs could have been healed tuberculosis then maybe that was the reason why Mary was there.

What I'm wondering is: is the Cardiff Infirmary still there, and, if so, would they have records from that time still in existence?

Love,
Mum
( Sorry dear. I'm trying to remember).

Carol

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. I think you are right that her case was well researched. After all, how else could they have even formed a hypothesis of collusion regarding her slayer's escape? Something must have tipped them off?

That's a whole other theory, though, Lynn. Right?

[Garry Wroe]

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, (including of course the necessity to "tie up" Johnto, as far as this may be possible), do we not, though, have the "City Missionary" report in the Daily News of 12th November 1888, which is at least suggestive of some limited contact with family members in Ireland?

As far as I’m aware, Dave, the Missionary story was big on hearsay but distinctly lacking in substance. It was but one of many tales doing the rounds – the claim that Kelly had a young son, for example, or her rise from the dead as related by Carrie Maxwell. Personally I attach very little credence to it.

My own inclination would be towards a combination of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" family correspondence...after all, there doesn't seem to be any real evidence either way, so far, to say where they all were by 1888....

But if there was any communication between Kelly and her family, Dave, why did not a single relative come forward when they learned of her death? Likewise, if her name really was Mary Kelly, and if she really had been born in Ireland, and really had moved to Wales as a youngster, why is it that not a single schoolfriend, teacher, near-neighbour, shopkeeper or family associate recognized her from the various press reports and communicate such knowledge to the authorities? On top of this we have her husband’s family, the staff of the Cardiff infirmary, the cousin with whom she was supposed to have prostituted herself. It is inconceivable that not a single person made the connection between ‘their’ Mary and the woman who was murdered in Miller’s Court. Inconceivable, that is, unless Kelly had so distorted her personal history that it proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.

Quite simply, if not one of these people recognized her, they couldn’t have been in communication with her. Thus it may be concluded that her father certainly didn’t visit her, and she was in written communication with neither her mother or brother. Indeed, I would go even further and say that her family name could not have been Kelly.

[lynn cates]

tip

Hello Debs. I think you are right that her case was well researched. After all, how else could they have even formed a hypothesis of collusion regarding her slayer's escape? Something must have tipped them off?

And, if I recall properly, "The Echo" sent a reporter to Cardiff in search of her antecedents. He came up empty.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

names

Hello Jon. If 1 in 100 enlisted under a false name, then 99% did not?

Concerning his knowledge of MJ's death, would not he have been aware of her aliases as she, his?

Cheers.
LC