Kellys in the Scots Guards

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg.

"So, although Flemming, Morgan(stone/stein/stern) might be all genuine people in her recent past, they may have been told the same sorts of lies about her deeper history?"

Ah! Now you are humming my tune!

Cheers.
LC

Yep, that's what Debs said. And whilst it is perfectly possible that they were lied to, I'd recommend absolute and total caution before coming anywhere near suggesting that they were lied to. Assuming untruth is an awfully easy way of getting past things we don't like or find awkward, and, of course, folk can dismiss any verification of anything Mary said as them being lied to too, which gives one a clear playing field on which to build any edifice one likes. What I am actually suggesting is that one looks very carefully at Mary's story in its totality, all its various parts, to see whether it appears true or not.

[lynn cates]

We build excitement.

Hello Debs. Hmm, a quote of a quote? Very well--I'm still excited!

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Don't get excited-that particular statement was mine, Lynn!

[lynn cates]

sweet music

Hello Mr. Begg.

"So, although Flemming, Morgan(stone/stein/stern) might be all genuine people in her recent past, they may have been told the same sorts of lies about her deeper history?"

Ah! Now you are humming my tune!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Jon.

"where do we go now?"

Well, I would suggest we look at our list above and try hypotheses about it. Who knows what might turn up?

Besides, much more efficient that going to a directory and beginning with Aardvark, Ethel and proceeding to Zymurgy, Zenon.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

It isn't any less acceptable Debs, (less likely perhaps, for reasons already offered), but lets say we all conceed that Mary/Marie Jane/Jeanette Kelly is false.

Lets follow your lead, where do we go now?

Regards, Jon S.

Which is a similar question to an earlier post I made on a completely different thread that sparked this one off.
I said- If any bit of MJK's story is false what evidence are we willing to accept from researchers to prove they have found the right woman?
Will we accept anywhere in Ireland as a birthplace, will we accept a brother in the army rather than the specific regiment, will we accept her father's name was Fred and they never lived in Wales? How we will know if it's the right girl?

You say we should consider Mary hasn't been identified as all sources haven't been exhausted and that's true but should we also be willing to accept there were some lies told?...Even you agree with this to some degree but you prefer to think it was Henry who told the lie. So, your ideas aren't that much different? Slot in a lie and it becomes the reason we can't trace her/him.

[lynn cates]

boarder

Hello Debs. Thanks. Yes, that's the one.

"But Morganstern/stein/stone are all acceptable variations of the same name I would think"

To be sure. Of course, I did have a slight problem with his age and his having a family. But then MJK may have been a boarder?

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Dave.
Here we go with that 'believe' again, where do I say anything about belief?

The two of you need to talk to a copper (yes, you too Trevor) about the difference between not dismissing something but not believing it either.
All the stories stay on the table because, we cannot tell which one is true and which is false.

I'm really bemused why this is so difficult to understand.

Not half as much as I am.

Paul.
I thumbed through both your A-Z & Uncensored Facts last night, yes I'd forgotten you'd covered that little story.

Regards, Jon S.[/QUOTE]

Easily done. Intriguing little tale. An exciting lead at the time.

[PaulB]

[QUOTE=Debra A;217464]Hi Paul. Oh, I know you weren't, but it's amazing what other people read into a post!
Yes, that's the important thing I wanted to get across. The story hadn't been missed, and no one had found a woman fitting the name and details in Wales... and it has all been well researched donkey's years ago.

It seems to be that she lied to Mrs Carthy though, too? Didn't Mary tell her that she had a two year old daughter, but not living with her?
So, although Flemming, Morgan(stone/stein/stern) might be all genuine people in her recent past, they may have been told the same sorts of lies about her deeper history? But they do seem to confirm the timeline of MJK's life in London, I agree.

Mary may have lied, and I'd be surprised if she didn't, but not necessarily to hide her identity. Stride lied about her husband and child dying aboard the Princess Alice, but she seems to have been pitching for the sympathy vote rather than masking her identity. Mary may have done the same with her tale about losing her new husband in a mine accident or about having a child, but overall her story roughly pans out (although obviously we'd love to know more about Mrs Carthy and Mrs Buki and I am counting on you and Rob and Chris Scot to come up with that!). Given the rest of the slight confirmatory detail, he father trying to find her, possible letters from her mother/brother in Ireland, and the brother coming to see her... I dunno, the balance seems to tip in favour of Kelly.

Yes, the Scots Guards is frustrating and I bet it is a damn site easier researching the files online! The fact that there's still no easily identifiable Kelly in the Scots Guards is telling, perhaps? Either he gave a false name as has been suggested, or Mary did? ( I still can't understand why her giving a false name is less acceptable than her brother doing it.) Either way without the name or a definite idea of which parts of her background story are true,it becomes very difficult to research.

I have a vague memory - and I will dig out my old files to check - that Scots Guards records weren't all there. But as I hesitate to even dip my toe in 'missing files' waters, I will check the files when I get home tonight.

[Wickerman]

( I still can't understand why her giving a false name is less acceptable than her brother doing it.) Either way without the name or a definite idea of which parts of her background story are true,it becomes very difficult to research.

It isn't any less acceptable Debs, (less likely perhaps, for reasons already offered), but lets say we all conceed that Mary/Marie Jane/Jeanette Kelly is false.

Lets follow your lead, where do we go now?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Not at all Jon...just pointing out the obvious...that you don't want to go believing everything you read in the papers...

All the best

Dave

Dave.
Here we go with that 'believe' again, where do I say anything about belief?

The two of you need to talk to a copper (yes, you too Trevor) about the difference between not dismissing something but not believing it either.
All the stories stay on the table because, we cannot tell which one is true and which is false.

I'm really bemused why this is so difficult to understand.


Paul.
I thumbed through both your A-Z & Uncensored Facts last night, yes I'd forgotten you'd covered that little story.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Hello (again) Debs. Is that the Adrianus Morgestern who was found near the Stepney gas works?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
I am thinking of the man recently written about by Neal and Jenni Shelden. Sorry, I don't remember too much of the details at present and can't remember which issue of the Examiner the article was in.
But Morganstern/stein/stone are all acceptable variations of the same name I would think?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,
It didn't read like that at all. Nor would I ever suggest such a thing! I was just drawing attention to the fact that we have known about that story for a long time and exhaustively researched it, but as I wasn't sure where the story was quickly and easily available I pointed to the book.

Yes, Morganstone, Flemming, and even the far less reliable Mrs Carthy and the unidentified Mrs Buki perhaps confirm the least believable part of Mary Kelly's story, namely working in a high class West End bordello. On balance, onehas to pause and question whether or not she would have been lying about a brother in the Scots Guards. I know I found researching that out to be highly frustrating. It's easier now, of course, with the records being available online.

Hi Paul. Oh, I know you weren't, but it's amazing what other people read into a post!
Yes, that's the important thing I wanted to get across. The story hadn't been missed, and no one had found a woman fitting the name and details in Wales... and it has all been well researched donkey's years ago.

It seems to be that she lied to Mrs Carthy though, too? Didn't Mary tell her that she had a two year old daughter, but not living with her?
So, although Flemming, Morgan(stone/stein/stern) might be all genuine people in her recent past, they may have been told the same sorts of lies about her deeper history? But they do seem to confirm the timeline of MJK's life in London, I agree.

Yes, the Scots Guards is frustrating and I bet it is a damn site easier researching the files online! The fact that there's still no easily identifiable Kelly in the Scots Guards is telling, perhaps? Either he gave a false name as has been suggested, or Mary did? ( I still can't understand why her giving a false name is less acceptable than her brother doing it.) Either way without the name or a definite idea of which parts of her background story are true,it becomes very difficult to research.

[lynn cates]

Morgestern

Hello (again) Debs. Is that the Adrianus Morgestern who was found near the Stepney gas works?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Debs. Thanks. I thought the story had been discredited.

Cheers.
LC