For what reason do we include Stride?

[etenguy]

In the heat of the moment, unsure of what exactly happened to that point, the people most closely associated with the club agreed what should be said to the police. To minimize any suggestion that any member or person onsite at the time might be guilty of murder.

I can imagine the scenario you describe, though lies involving a number of people that have been hurriedly put together, tend to fall apart just as quickly. I think the police would likely have spotted a group lie.

[Batman]

Ive read a lot of your posts lately and Im now convinced that you have not studied these crimes for very long.

If you want to take an antagonistic approach to the boards, np, just try and know what the hell you are talking about please.

MWR, you don't believe there is a JTR do you?

I am not taking any such approach except the ones laid out by Sugden, Rumbelow, Begg, etc.

All the C5 had their neck's cut while prostrate.

That's a major link because it's very rare.

What say thou?

[Michael W Richards]

Ive read a lot of your posts lately and Im now convinced that you have not studied these crimes for very long.

It's not being adverse to it, it's the fact there is no evidence for it and there is evidence contradicting it. Especially given we know they were investigated. There is no reason they were in on it any more than anyone else living, working, clubbing in close proximity to any Whitechapel murder.

The murder occurred on their property when 20 plus men were still onsite, no one saw anything apparently even though club witnesses put themselves in locations where other members have said they were , at least 3 club witnesses claimed they were notified of the body at 12:45, and the "investigation" was to search them and the club for evidence...a bloody knife could easily have been dropped in a soapy sink.

The point is that if the club were in on a conspiracy to frame JtR for the murder then why not mutilate Stride? It really is that simple.

Why would they do that? The club staff finds out a murder was committed, a spur of the moment act, all they have to do is explain why that happened on their property. They frame the killer at large because its a good idea at the time, the only "conspiracy" is that people who make thir living there agree to follow a "didnt see nothing or no-one, didnt here no-one". The facts are that Wess says he leaves while Lave says he was inside the passage and near the gate..neither see either....that Eagle says "he couldnt be sure" a body wasnt there at 12:45, that Issac Kozebrodski says he was sent out alone by Louis near 12:45, 2 other members corroborate that time,.. Louis says he arrived promptly at 1am, he was sure, yet Fanny is at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously...we know this because she sees Goldstein at 12:55, and she doesnt see or hear Louis approach,... that Israels claims are seen or heard by no-one else even though we know Fanny can hear the street activity and a young couple are also on the street.

Why do they need to make the discovery also?

Need to? The woman is lying in the passageway her blood trailing down towards the open door...20 men are inside and since the front door in now locked they will leave by the side entrance...the question is more how could they avoid making a discovery.

Louis Diemschutz, the steward of the Workers' Club, claims to have found her body and disturbed the killer who he thought could be still in the yard.

Louis was lying about the time he arrived and what happened next, and he doesnt claim to have "disturbed" anyone.

Also, why aren't they all describing JtR as a non-Jew doing the murder?

Israels story has an antisemite assaulting Liz less than 10 minutes before he throat is cut...how you came to the above position is beyond me.

Why leave it so open-ended as to the blame possibly falling on them?

The stories deflect the blame onto the antisemetic gentile...you have read something about the cases havent you? Not that mere reading allows one to accurately interpret what is being written, but it is a start.

You do realize it is the double event that suddenly changed the complexion of Stride's murder.

I realize that 3 women had their throats slit on one night, and that a Double Event is a constructed theory, not an established fact.

How did they organize a double-event? Just got lucky?

The fact you would ask that shows you dont understand the dynamics here at all.

If you want them to be in a conspiracy you actually need to explain a logical conspiracy that explains all the facts. Not just that someone in the club killed her and others helped cover it up. The facts are much more than that.

The medical examiner said she may have been cut while falling, that she was cut once, and that it may have been a 2 second attack. Those facts fit with what I suggest...a spur of the moment action with consequences that were mitigated by constructing alibis.

If you want to take an antagonistic approach to the boards, np, just try and know what the hell you are talking about please.

[Wickerman]

Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.

Which is why I suggested that 'mud' was a euphemism for horse dung.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR



Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man



Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!



I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.

thanks Jon

now that I see your scenario more clearly-I have no problem with it.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Abby

One thing I have little doubt is that BS man, AKA peaked cap to me, was strides killer and JTR.

My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR

I have a lot of little scenarios on how the specifics of the BS man/stride murder may have went down.

the one I favor:
BS man is the man that Marshall, schwartz and probably the PC saw with stride. perhaps Best too, but just got the hat completely wrong.

Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man

BS man meets stride somewhere, perhaps the pub, and is trying to finagle her to a secluded spot. Shes not going-I think because she was not actively soliciting, maybe wary of the ripper murders-she just broken up and seems to me to be out having a good time maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfreind/sugar daddy.

Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!

I think more than likely, schwartz saw the attack/beginning of the attack, just didnt specifically see him cut her throat.

Her hand goes to her throat, BS man skidaddles, stride stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard.

I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.

[Jon Guy]

But Jon, where does the soil come from?
Diemschitz had come from Crystal Palace and the cart was kept in George Yard, Cable Street.
The roads between Crystal Palace and Berner St. are all paved or cobbled.
George Yard was cobbled just like Dutfields Yard.
Where does the cart wheel pick up wet soil?

Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.

Be my guest Jon, pick a newspaper that suits your theory - attaboy!

But you`ll note, I reference both sources ;-)

[Batman]

Liz was obviously not killed by a pm mutilator, Kate was, and the proof that the club members were trying to foist Liz's murder on JTR is very clear in their use of the phrase..."another murder has been committed".

I find it absolutely fascinating that people seem so adverse to the notion that a club with a bad reputation would lie, or conspire, about the facts concerning a dead woman on their property.

It's not being adverse to it, it's the fact there is no evidence for it and there is evidence contradicting it. Especially given we know they were investigated. There is no reason they were in on it any more than anyone else living, working, clubbing in close proximity to any Whitechapel murder.

The point is that if the club were in on a conspiracy to frame JtR for the murder then why not mutilate Stride? It really is that simple.

Why do they need to make the discovery also?

Louis Diemschutz, the steward of the Workers' Club, claims to have found her body and disturbed the killer who he thought could be still in the yard.

What sort of conspiracy is that?

Also, why aren't they all describing JtR as a non-Jew doing the murder?

Why leave it so open-ended as to the blame possibly falling on them?

You do realize it is the double event that suddenly changed the complexion of Stride's murder.

How did they organize a double-event?

Just got lucky?

If you want them to be in a conspiracy you actually need to explain a logical conspiracy that explains all the facts. Not just that someone in the club killed her and others helped cover it up. The facts are much more than that.

[Michael W Richards]

Did those conspirators in the club run off to Mitre Sq. to make sure they turned it into a double event?

Let me guess, they were disturbed from mutilating Stride because someone was coming?

... just like JtR was right?

I originally had that name here but I think my posts were at least readable. I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, but so you stay on page, Liz was obviously not killed by a pm mutilator, Kate was, and the proof that the club members were trying to foist Liz's murder on JTR is very clear in their use of the phrase..."another murder has been committed".

I find it absolutely fascinating that people seem so adverse to the notion that a club with a bad reputation would lie, or conspire, about the facts concerning a dead woman on their property. People lie everyday, even about small insignificant things. Would someone lie to protect their livelihood? Or their social club? Of course they would. Its nonsense to treat that idea without respect.

[Batman]

Why didn't they mutilate Stride if they want to throw suspicion on JtR?

Did those conspirators in the club run off to Mitre Sq. to make sure they turned it into a double event?

Let me guess, they were disturbed from mutilating Stride because someone was coming?

... just like JtR was right?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

And what do you think would have happened to the club and its members if the police determined that they had deliberately lied to the police in a murder investigation?

c.d.

They would have been under close scrutiny and they, and their associates would be investigated. Some charges might be laid.

What I am talking about is what would happen if the police suspected that they were lying to conceal their culpability. I think that the club would have closed either voluntarily or otherwise, I think that the sentiments towards immigrant Jews in the area would worsen , if that was even possible..and I think Louis would lose his job, and Mrs D, and Eagle would lose a paying venue for his speeches. Wess might be pressured into shutting down or relocating.

In the heat of the moment, unsure of what exactly happened to that point, the people most closely associated with the club agreed what should be said to the police. To minimize any suggestion that any member or person onsite at the time might be guilty of murder.

Israel Schwartz does that better than anyone, but he did have all day to prepare his story.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

And what do you think would have happened to the club and its members if the police determined that they had deliberately lied to the police in a murder investigation?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree with Michael to a certain extent. But I feel it was Jack who murdered Liz. I feel he came up behind her, possibly being already in the passageway [she may not have even heard him over the singing], grabbed her by the scarf, pulling it tight, lowering her down on her left side before slitting her throat so the blood ran away from him down the gutter and pooled under her body.

You know Darryl if this was the same man that killed Polly then Annie he is demonstrably reckless. In venue....in choosing to stay over someone he just killed to mutilate them...every second with the body a serious risk to his freedom. Yet he stayed and cut. Quickly, yet deftly. If the members who we have on record saying that no-one was around at approximately 12:45...including Liz apparently, not one member seems to have seen her after she is seen by PC Smith with who is likely Wess...were telling the truth, then why... would... he... not.... cut?

I mentioned in the last post that she may have been meeting someone there. What about Eagle? He said he entered the passageway at around 12:45 and stayed close to the wall of the club when heading to the side door. He also said "I cant be sure" a body wasnt there at that time. Couldnt be sure? She may have been cut at 12:45-46, precisely where he says he walked. She was certainly already in the passageway at that time,...Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am...and she didnt see Liz at all, or see or hear Louis arrive.

All I ask is that a proper assessment is made of the key club members statements, the ones that had the most to lose if the club got closed up due to an investigation or general suspicion of culpability. Marry them with the witness who did not have that "club management" connection...Fanny, Spooner, Brown, even lesser members like Kozebrodski, Heschberg..and you will see that 4 or 5 people directly contradicted what Eagle, Louis and Lave said about events and timings.

Liz was almost certainly in that passageway and off the street by 12:50 anyway thanks to Fanny. So where was she when Lave was at the gates, or Eagle entered the passageway? And where was Louis at 1am, if not approaching and entering the yard by cart and horse? Fanny didnt see him at all. Therefore, his claim that he arrived "precisely at 1" is provably false. What else did he, and others, lie about? And who says that they would tell the truth to cops who had very low opinions of them and their club?

[Michael W Richards]

Blimey, you don't half like your conspiracy theories, Michael! Ingenious, nonetheless. That said, I doubt that she was there for a cleaning job, given that she'd earlier got herself spruced up for a night out. The fact that her activities that night happened in her old (but recent) stomping-ground of St George's in the East might indicate that she was known to her killer for reasons other than cleaning duties. Indeed, Berner Street was within spitting-distance of Devonshire Street, where she and Michael Kidney had both lived and, I believe, where Kidney was to live again. That she met her end at the hands of a jealous old flame (or her current one) seems a reasonable possibility to me.

Thanks for the response Sam.

I think she was there for something that she felt required a spiffy presence, hence the good evening wear, the flowers, and the cashous as a finishing touch. I dont think that trawling for clients is indicated there. Maybe it was for Kidney. Maybe for someone she started seeing after telling Kidney to p*** off. Maybe for someone who returned to the club at 12:45.

[Michael W Richards]

However, they were thwarted by the 'real' JtR who ended up doing his best to blame the Jews by writing the Goulston St. Graffiti and dropping a piece of Eddowes Apron right in the heart of a Jewish area also?

JtR was trying to pin it on Jews then.

Just like he was obviously trying to pin it on Jews in Berner St.

Why was he trying to pin it on the Jews?

Because there was anti-semitic mania at the time heightened by the murders. Pizer! The fact the GSG was rubbed out demonstrates this is the case.

What if the man who killed Kate got wind of what happened in Berner Street, and what if he was an antisemitic just like many of the gentile locals were. Then you have a possible...."The Juewes/Jewes/Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing"... which may have meant without cause.

Maybe he was antisemitic as I suggest, maybe he was put off that the Jews on Berner Street were trying to evade blame and shuck it off on him...if he also killed Polly and Annie of course. The fact that message appeared at the entrance to dwellings that were almost totally occupied by Jewish immigrants wasnt coincidental. Jewish Immigrants were attempting to evade any blame that same night.