For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

I know very little about the methods of prostitutes (honest guv) but I get the impression that these transactions were unlikely to have included any soppy nonsense like kissing. Does the fact that she was using cachous indicate that Liz was expecting a more personal assignation?

Hi HS

Having recently broken up with kidney, Stride was probably hoping BS man was her new man, unfortunately he was the ripper.

[c.d.]

It could be that Stride's client had gone back into the club for something while she waited outside. BS Man comes along (possibly Kidney?) and starts hassling her. After being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, he buggers off. Liz's client comes out of the club, consoles her. They go into the yard to seal the deal and the rest is history.

Hello Harry,

I certainly don't see Kidney as the BS man. Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not provide one I think they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

c.d.

[Harry D]

Hello Sam,

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that. The real question to me is how they could have survived her being thrown to the ground, pushing herself up and being dragged back into the yard by the BS man. While it is possible that she simply could have held on to them I think it is very unlikely. I think it much more likely that she didn't have them in her hand at the time of her encounter with the BS man but took them out after he had left in anticipation of hooking up with a client. Which I think she did (Jack).

c.d.

It could be that Stride's client had gone back into the club for something while she waited outside. BS Man comes along (possibly Kidney?) and starts hassling her. After being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, he buggers off. Liz's client comes out of the club, consoles her. They go into the yard to seal the deal and the rest is history.

[c.d.]

What was she doing with the cachous to begin with? Did she perhaps fish them out of her pocket after her assault, in a futile last grasp at normality before she expired? Might she, in a daze, have mistaken the paper packet for a hanky to staunch the blood?

Hello Sam,

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that. The real question to me is how they could have survived her being thrown to the ground, pushing herself up and being dragged back into the yard by the BS man. While it is possible that she simply could have held on to them I think it is very unlikely. I think it much more likely that she didn't have them in her hand at the time of her encounter with the BS man but took them out after he had left in anticipation of hooking up with a client. Which I think she did (Jack).

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Unless he struck just after she’d taken one but before she’d put them away?

Maybe, but I find it likely that she'd let them go as she died, put up a defence and/or struggled for her life.

[c.d.]

Too true, CD.

I'm still rather sceptical about Schwartz's version of events. According to those who believe BS Man was the killer, not only did Stride keep hold of the cachous during her assault, but she also went into the pitch black of the yard with her assailant. Most of the evidence points towards Stride being killed while her guard was down.

Hello Harry,

My feeling is that those who believe the BS man was her killer conflate Schwartz's version of events with her actual killing. All he saw was a woman being pushed which would correspond with a simple street hassle. If you accept that idea, a lot of the red flags associated with the BS man as her killer disappear.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Or he handed her the packet, pretending sympathy after her encounter with BS man, and then struck while she was distracted, examining the gift?

That crossed my mind, too, Caz. But why was she still holding the packet when she was found dead?

[caz]

Or he handed her the packet, pretending sympathy after her encounter with BS man, and then struck while she was distracted, examining the gift?

Various possibilities here.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

My puzzlement isn't so much to do with the fact that she had cachous, but that she happened still to be holding a packet of them whilst in her death throes. Unless her killer struck at the exact moment she was going for her sweets and her hand immediately went into spasm, without her putting up any struggle - but how likely is that?

Unless he struck just after she’d taken one but before she’d put them away?

[Sam Flynn]

My puzzlement isn't so much to do with the fact that she had cachous, but that she happened still to be holding a packet of them whilst in her death throes. Unless her killer struck at the exact moment she was going for her sweets and her hand immediately went into spasm, without her putting up any struggle - but how likely is that?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know very little about the methods of prostitutes (honest guv) but I get the impression that these transactions were unlikely to have included any soppy nonsense like kissing. Does the fact that she was using cachous indicate that Liz was expecting a more personal assignation?

[Sam Flynn]

What was she doing with the cachous to begin with? Did she perhaps fish them out of her pocket after her assault, in a futile last grasp at normality before she expired? Might she, in a daze, have mistaken the paper packet for a hanky to staunch the blood?

[Harry D]

I have to wonder just how vicious the B.S. man's "attack" could have been if it didn't even dislodge a packet of cachous wrapped in tissue from a woman's hand.

Too true, CD.

I'm still rather sceptical about Schwartz's version of events. According to those who believe BS Man was the killer, not only did Stride keep hold of the cachous during her assault, but she also went into the pitch black of the yard with her assailant. Most of the evidence points towards Stride being killed while her guard was down.

[caz]

I don't understand how the saucy jacky postcard confirms the connection.

If the Dear Boss and saucy jacky postcard are the invention of a journalist (I'm a big Harry Dam fan) then of course the author of the postcard prima facie would connect the two murders and create a wonderful sound bite like "double event."

The creation of the phrase didn't need the author to hold any forensic knowledge; just journalistic (yellow press) opportunism at play. Given the situation (opportunity to sell papers) the postcard author would have likely linked the death of any two sex workers as a 'double event' regardless of the forensics involved; it was just good press.

Besides how much time between observation, composition, and mailing (of the postcard) was available anyway? Certainly not enough to do any kind of real forensic investigation.

Hi APerno,

The fact remains that we have had a lot more time to analyse the murders of these two unfortunates on the same night, and to compare the details with genuine double events of the modern era, and the postcard author got it pretty much spot on, in the brief time allowed to him. That 'wonderful sound bite' has stood the test of time and history, despite no journalist having the luxury of predicting, in mid-September 1888, that the Whitechapel mutilator - or someone doing an excellent impression of him - would be on the job again within a few days of the Dear Boss letter, or that two women would die by a slit throat on the same night, giving him the idea and opportunity for a double event 'chaser' that would make such 'good press'.

Nobody has been able to establish over the subsequent 130 years that the victims were unconnected by a common killer or cause, and that therefore the author of letter and postcard was an enterprising hoaxer who missed the mark.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

If she had staggered while holding her throat there would have been blood all down her front, and down her arm. The blood is under pressure so it will run out faster than she could hope to stop it.
I thought this was one of the clues the doctors noticed which convinced them she was already on her back when the throat was cut.