For what reason do we include Stride?

[Sam Flynn]

Which still leaves us with...what was she doing there, and why would someone kill her?

There to clean the club after a large meeting...a job she got from one of her regular jewish customers who is a club member, and the hired thug thought she was there to spy. The reason the most closely affiliated with the club, Wess, Eagle, Diemshutz, all claimed to have seen nothing is because they didn't actually see what happened, Wess had left, Eagle arrived just after it happened, as did Louis, but when Schwartz talks to Wess later that day they decide that this witnessed assault would be far less damaging to the club if it happened off their property. The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

Blimey, you don't half like your conspiracy theories, Michael! Ingenious, nonetheless. That said, I doubt that she was there for a cleaning job, given that she'd earlier got herself spruced up for a night out. The fact that her activities that night happened in her old (but recent) stomping-ground of St George's in the East might indicate that she was known to her killer for reasons other than cleaning duties. Indeed, Berner Street was within spitting-distance of Devonshire Street, where she and Michael Kidney had both lived and, I believe, where Kidney was to live again. That she met her end at the hands of a jealous old flame (or her current one) seems a reasonable possibility to me.

[Batman]

The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

However, they were thwarted by the 'real' JtR who ended up doing his best to blame the Jews by writing the Goulston St. Graffiti and dropping a piece of Eddowes Apron right in the heart of a Jewish area also?

JtR was trying to pin it on Jews then.

Just like he was obviously trying to pin it on Jews in Berner St.

Why was he trying to pin it on the Jews?

Because there was anti-semitic mania at the time heightened by the murders. Pizer! The fact the GSG was rubbed out demonstrates this is the case.

A Jew at the time would have to be out of his raving mind to murder a woman right next to a Jewish socialist club in the dead of night in the middle of all of this. Everyone in the club was searched. You would need a CONSPIRACY THEORY to support this version of unlikely events.

[Abby Normal]

What do you think about the mud evidence, Abby ?

The mud found on her matches how she was found on her left side.
If she had been thrown to the floor twice, once by BS Man, and again by the phantom killer, there would be extra mud on her ie on her arse or knees, or something similar.
So.... she was only thrown to the floor once, and we have a witness to that.

What d`ya reckon .. bollocks ?

Hi Jon
One thing I have little doubt is that BS man, AKA peaked cap to me, was strides killer and JTR.

I have a lot of little scenarios on how the specifics of the BS man/stride murder may have went down.

the one I favor:
BS man is the man that Marshall, schwartz and probably the PC saw with stride. perhaps Best too, but just got the hat completely wrong.


BS man meets stride somewhere, perhaps the pub, and is trying to finagle her to a secluded spot. Shes not going-I think because she was not actively soliciting, maybe wary of the ripper murders-she just broken up and seems to me to be out having a good time maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfreind/sugar daddy.

BS man getting more frustated-hes spending time and money on her-perhaps bought her drinks, flower,cashoo and shes still not going.


finally after one last time to try to get her to a secluded spot she refuses and he loses his temper and attacks her at the club, cutting her throat.


I think more than likely, schwartz saw the attack/beginning of the attack, just didnt specifically see him cut her throat.


Her hand goes to her throat, BS man skidaddles, stride stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard.

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

Hello Jon.

Two small details come to mind.

In reviewing press cuttings there is a possibility that the term 'mud' is being used as a euphemism for horse dropping.

Dutfields Yard was cobblestone, not grass or soil, so the fact Stride had 'mud' on her side may only mean she fell on some horse dung, not on soil.
The yard was cobblestones.

Stride could have fallen a second time on the paving or cobbles where there was no horse dung therefore no direct evidence would be present indicating a second fall.


The second point, "footway" means pavement, paving flags, or footpath in English terminology.

Here is mention of a footway on both sides of the street, ie footpath.



If Stride was assaulted on the footway, then she was assaulted outside the gates, on the common footpath.

[Abby Normal]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

[Sam Flynn]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

Not necessarily, if "sidewalk" always means "a pathway on the side of a public road". A footway could be anywhere a pedestrian might walk (e.g "way or path for pedestrians, such as a raised walk along the edge of a bridge" - Collins Dictionary).

[Wickerman]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

A "footway" is constructed for the purpose of foot traffic, so yes it is a sidewalk.
A "footway" can be asphalt or stone paving (flags).
It is also stated in some accounts that it is unlawful for wheeled carriages to be on footways. Which is the case for footpaths/sidewalks, but not entrances to yards whether paved or cobbled. This only serves to clarify that the victorian term "footway" was a paved section of the common street running along both sides of the road, not the resurfaced entrance to a yard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

In reviewing press cuttings there is a possibility that the term 'mud' is being used as a euphemism for horse dropping.

Dutfields Yard was cobblestone, not grass or soil, so the fact Stride had 'mud' on her side may only mean she fell on some horse dung, not on soil.
The yard was cobblestones.

Stride could have fallen a second time on the paving or cobbles where there was no horse dung therefore no direct evidence would be present indicating a second fall.

Where Stride was lying was where the wheels of any traffic would have passed, so it could have been muddy against the wall, with all the crap that comes off the wheels or gets brushed aside.
It was wet and late September so there must have been muck lying around the yard on the cobblestones.

The second point, "footway" means pavement, paving flags, or footpath in English terminology.

Here is mention of a footway on both sides of the street, ie footpath.



If Stride was assaulted on the footway, then she was assaulted outside the gates, on the common footpath.

Agreed, but there was no footway in front of the gates, and bearing in mind that the two Schwartz statements were both translations, and may have meant passageway, as in the Star, (the version I like as it suits my theory :-)

[Sam Flynn]

A "footway" is constructed for the purpose of foot traffic, so yes it is a sidewalk.
A "footway" can be asphalt or stone paving (flags).
It is also stated in some accounts that it is unlawful for wheeled carriages to be on footways. Which is the case for footpaths/sidewalks, but not entrances to yards whether paved or cobbled. This only serves to clarify that the victorian term "footway" was a paved section of the common street running along both sides of the road, not the resurfaced entrance to a yard.

All sidewalks are footways, but not all footways are sidewalks. You're quite right in stating that the surfaced entrance to the yard wouldn't be described as a footway, though.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think 'need' in terms of a serial sexual homicide offender is very different from what 'need' means to normal people.

In terms of the double murder, these crimes have all the hallmarks of an offender unable to achieve their signature (ripping) which is vital to the emotional need they set to get.

JtR didn't get it with Stride.

Also, he would have been decompensating following a failed attempt which explains him taking bigger risks that can get him caught (Mitre Square).

So quite the opposite of what you think would happen, could happen, namely, instead of fleeing and going into cool down mode, he doubles down on finding a victim to achieve the signature he needs. As is demonstrated throughout crime history with many of these offenders.

Furthermore, the GSG is aimed at Jews following what appears to be Jews getting in his way with Stride certainly and then again with Lewende and friends.

I am surprised that the people who think that Stride was murdered by a Jew at the socialist club on Berner St., aren't putting together that JtR was perhaps playing to people's fears that a Jew was responsible for the murders.

An assault on a woman at night during the Whitechapel murders is exactly the sort of thing LE at the time would wanted to have known about. Consider Leather Apron. What we he guilty of? Look what happened to Piser. He was let go because he didn't do anything, but suspicion was enough to have half of London after him.

We can be guaranteed that JtR assaulted other women before the Whitechapel murders and during them, which went unreported.

Here is another red blotchy faced person for example doing just that...

A little after midnight on March 28 1888, thirty-nine-year-old Ada Wilson, a dress maker, was sitting in her room at 9 Maidman Street, Mile End, when there was a knock on the door.

Opening it, she found a man aged about thirty, who was around five foot six in height, and who had a fair moustache and a sunburnt face standing outside. His clothes consisted of a dark coat, light trousers and a wide-awake hat. The man threatened to kill her if she didn’t give him money. When Ada refused, he took out a clasp-knife and stabbed her twice in the throat.

I am struggling with this. If Jack had to have the signature he needs, why did he kill Liz in the first place after he had been seen? If he knew he then could not go on to mutilate her for fear of being caught instead of just slitting her throat and making a quick getaway? Basically, he wouldn't. No gratification and all he is doing is putting himself in danger. And if we can be guaranteed that he assaulted other women during and before the murders as you say, [which incidentally i think is likely]. Then why didn't he kill them? Well, probably the main reason is that he may have been spotted assaulting said women so he couldn't kill them. but isn't that exactly what he did with Liz?

[Darryl Kenyon]

I agree with Michael to a certain extent. But I feel it was Jack who murdered Liz. I feel he came up behind her, possibly being already in the passageway [she may not have even heard him over the singing], grabbed her by the scarf, pulling it tight, lowering her down on her left side before slitting her throat so the blood ran away from him down the gutter and pooled under her body.

[Abby Normal]

I agree with Michael to a certain extent. But I feel it was Jack who murdered Liz. I feel he came up behind her, possibly being already in the passageway [she may not have even heard him over the singing], grabbed her by the scarf, pulling it tight, lowering her down on her left side before slitting her throat so the blood ran away from him down the gutter and pooled under her body.

after BS man assaulted her and left?

[Abby Normal]

All sidewalks are footways, but not all footways are sidewalks. You're quite right in stating that the surfaced entrance to the yard wouldn't be described as a footway, though.

Thanks!
do we know if any kind of footway/sidewalk extended into the yard?

[Darryl Kenyon]

However, they were thwarted by the 'real' JtR who ended up doing his best to blame the Jews by writing the Goulston St. Graffiti and dropping a piece of Eddowes Apron right in the heart of a Jewish area also?

JtR was trying to pin it on Jews then.

Just like he was obviously trying to pin it on Jews in Berner St.

Why was he trying to pin it on the Jews?

Because there was anti-semitic mania at the time heightened by the murders. Pizer! The fact the GSG was rubbed out demonstrates this is the case.

A Jew at the time would have to be out of his raving mind to murder a woman right next to a Jewish socialist club in the dead of night in the middle of all of this. Everyone in the club was searched. You would need a CONSPIRACY THEORY to support this version of unlikely events.

I am not saying Jack was a Jew and i am not saying he was right. But Anderson certainly didn't think it was a Gentile trying to incriminate one. And the conclusion we came to is that certain low-class Polish Jews etc If Jack was trying to incriminate the Jews by killing someone outside a known Jewish club, how did he know there would be a victim there that night?
More likely Jack killed where the opportunity arose. Far away enough from his home but close enough to were he would feel comfortable.

[Darryl Kenyon]

after BS man assaulted her and left?

Yes, not that I am sure BS existed