For what reason do we include Stride?

[Wickerman]

I was going to suggest the Packer incident too. But could it be referring to Best and Gardner, who saw Stride with a man in the pub?

Yes Joshua.

Especially if we take the press report verbatim, "Two of the men who described at the time the man believed to have committed"..etc., may not refer to Packer & the shoe-black, as together they were not involved on the night of the murder, as far as we know (the shoe-black only appears in the second sighting).
We need to look for two men who "at the time" of the murder gave a description of the suspect.
So yes, Best & Gardner are very likely the two mentioned.

If this is correct, then what I do find intriguing here is that whoever wrote that article seemed to think the police looked at the man with Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms as the same as the man seen by PC Smith, and by Packer.

So thankyou for that Jeff, I'd overlooked that little gem.
I thought it was only me who took those three suspects (seen by Packer, Smith, Best & Gardner) as the same man,

[JeffHamm]

I was going to suggest the Packer incident too. But could it be referring to Best and Gardner, who saw Stride with a man in the pub?

Oh, I've forgotten that sighting I think. Will have to read up on it. Thanks for that.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

A speculation: Maybe Scwartz approached the police a second time with his translator in tow so to the press on hand thought it a two man observation. -- personally I think the above mentioned Packer logic makes more sense - if I am not mistaken Packer made such a claim once before.

Hi APerno,

Interesting idea, but like you, with the Packer explanation offered earlier, I think that's the most likely too. It's too vague a story to do much else than find a reasonable guesstimate, and Packer and the shoe-black combined with Packer's known contact with the press, fits the bill.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

I don't have a problem with the idea that Stride had preened herself to go out on a date or similar - indeed, given that she was hanging around the area where she'd lived for at least two, if not three years just before 1888, I wouldn't be surprised if she was. I agree about what the primary definition of cachou is, but that doesn't mean that the ones Liz had weren't of the throat lozenge variety. Indeed it might be that, because it was a doctor who described the cachous, he was as likely to use the word in that sense as he was to refer to the confectionary kind. Which were often made of licorice, by the way, so perhaps served the dual purpose of (somewhat) sweetening the breath and soothing the throat.

[Michael W Richards]

If cachous were only a ha'penny a bag or thereabouts, which I suspect is a reasonable guess, that hardly marks them out as luxury goods.

Incidentally, most of us have encountered Stride's "cachous" with the oft-quoted description that they were used to "sweeten the breath", but they were often - perhaps primarily? - medicinal in nature. At a mundane level, perhaps the only reason she had them was because she had a cold or a sore throat; it was a wet September, after all, and such infections must have been common in the lodging-houses.

Sam, Cashous primary definition is "

lozenge

for

sweetening

the

breath." Couple that with the flower arrangement...obtained after she left the lodging house, and the fact she requested a brush to remove lint from her boot length skirt, you have an example of preening. People preen before dates. People preen before work related occasions. Streetwalkers would not preen before soliciting smelly dockers or warehousemen after midnight.

[Joshua Rogan]

I was going to suggest the Packer incident too. But could it be referring to Best and Gardner, who saw Stride with a man in the pub?

[APerno]

Hi all,

While reading Evan's and Skinner last night (The Ultimate Jack The Ripper Companion), I came across an interesting news report (found on page 382, at the end of Chapter 22). Much of it is describing an attack on Annie Farmer, which I'll not transcribe here, but at the close of the article was this tantalizing gem. This was reported in the East Anglian Daily Times, on Monday, Nov 26th, 1888.

"...
Two of the men who described at the time the man believed to have committed the Berners [sic] Street and other murders, to-day reported that they have again seen him, but that though they followed him he disappeared suddenly down an unfrequented turning."

Now, combined with the older thread suggesting Pipe Man was possibly identified and interviewed (also in the Elizabeth Stride section like this thread), the only two men this could be would be Pipe Man and Schwartz. The problem, however, is that Pipe Man and Schwartz didn't know each other (otherwise why would Schwartz have run, etc), so the idea of them being together and spotting BS together seems unlikely.

Either this is a complete press fabrication or the two men referred to are Lawende and Levy, and it's not the Berner Street murder but the Mitre Square murder of Eddowes from the same night that they were connected to. While that makes the most sense to me, the article does actually say Berner Street, and I'm loath to just discard anything out of hand (as there are others who reported possible sightings of Stride that night, I just can't think of two who clearly must have spotted the same person, as pipe man and Scwartz would have), nor do any of the other sightings involve two people likely to be together and so produce the above story. It is much easier, and not a huge stretch, to suggest the wrong murder is being referenced in this story, but I was wondering if anyone has looked into this report (they don't say anything about it in Evan's and Skinner).

- Jeff

A speculation: Maybe Scwartz approached the police a second time with his translator in tow so to the press on hand thought it a two man observation. -- personally I think the above mentioned Packer logic makes more sense - if I am not mistaken Packer made such a claim once before.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff - This is just my guess, but I suspect it has something to do with Matthew Packer.

The story is a little suspicious in that it was reported by telegraph in a number of rural and even Irish papers on Nov 24th, but (as far as I know) doesn't appear to have a specific local London source. Your version is dated Nov 26, but the event supposedly took place on Saturday, Nov 24th and showed up in other papers on that date.

Curiously, it sounds suspiciously similar to the Matthew Packer story from 3 weeks earlier, reported on and around Nov 1st. Also on a Saturday night, Packer claimed to have seen the man who, accompanied by Stride, had bought his grapes on the night of the Berner Street murder. If you recall, Packer claims to have followed the man, got scared, recruited the help of a shoe-black, but the man eventually jumped onto a tram and disappeared. Since the above story also alludes to Berner Street, it could be an extremely belated retelling of the same event (doubtful), or even another sighting by Packer, who by now is accompanied by either the shoe-black or one of the shady cohorts that seem to have latched onto him.

Further, only three days earlier (Nov 21) Packer resurfaced once again, telling a story of two men who bought a bunch of rabbits at his shop and were trying to locate the same suspect.

Maybe it's an entirely different event, but Packer had been in the news recently, and the story has elements of the other two. Cheers. RP

Ah, thanks rjpalmer! Yes, that makes sense now. Packer was a bit of a news hound, I just couldn't figure out who "the other one" was with him that supposedly also gave a description. The shoe-black you mention provides a 2nd for him. I knew there was something odd about how it's told as I could only connect it to Pipe Man and Schwartz, but that connection didn't make sense as I can't see Pipe Man and Schwartz suddenly chumming around with each other. So something was either wrong or missing, and you've provided me with the missing element. Thanks for that.

- Jeff

[rjpalmer]

Hi Jeff - This is just my guess, but I suspect it has something to do with Matthew Packer.

The story is a little suspicious in that it was reported by telegraph in a number of rural and even Irish papers on Nov 24th, but (as far as I know) doesn't appear to have a specific local London source. Your version is dated Nov 26, but the event supposedly took place on Saturday, Nov 24th and showed up in other papers on that date.

Curiously, it sounds suspiciously similar to the Matthew Packer story from 3 weeks earlier, reported on and around Nov 1st. Also on a Saturday night, Packer claimed to have seen the man who, accompanied by Stride, had bought his grapes on the night of the Berner Street murder. If you recall, Packer claims to have followed the man, got scared, recruited the help of a shoe-black, but the man eventually jumped onto a tram and disappeared. Since the above story also alludes to Berner Street, it could be an extremely belated retelling of the same event (doubtful), or even another sighting by Packer, who by now is accompanied by either the shoe-black or one of the shady cohorts that seem to have latched onto him.

Further, only three days earlier (Nov 21) Packer resurfaced once again, telling a story of two men who bought a bunch of rabbits at his shop and were trying to locate the same suspect.

Maybe it's an entirely different event, but Packer had been in the news recently, and the story has elements of the other two. Cheers. RP

[JeffHamm]

Hi all,

While reading Evan's and Skinner last night (The Ultimate Jack The Ripper Companion), I came across an interesting news report (found on page 382, at the end of Chapter 22). Much of it is describing an attack on Annie Farmer, which I'll not transcribe here, but at the close of the article was this tantalizing gem. This was reported in the East Anglian Daily Times, on Monday, Nov 26th, 1888.

"...
Two of the men who described at the time the man believed to have committed the Berners [sic] Street and other murders, to-day reported that they have again seen him, but that though they followed him he disappeared suddenly down an unfrequented turning."

Now, combined with the older thread suggesting Pipe Man was possibly identified and interviewed (also in the Elizabeth Stride section like this thread), the only two men this could be would be Pipe Man and Schwartz. The problem, however, is that Pipe Man and Schwartz didn't know each other (otherwise why would Schwartz have run, etc), so the idea of them being together and spotting BS together seems unlikely.

Either this is a complete press fabrication or the two men referred to are Lawende and Levy, and it's not the Berner Street murder but the Mitre Square murder of Eddowes from the same night that they were connected to. While that makes the most sense to me, the article does actually say Berner Street, and I'm loath to just discard anything out of hand (as there are others who reported possible sightings of Stride that night, I just can't think of two who clearly must have spotted the same person, as pipe man and Scwartz would have), nor do any of the other sightings involve two people likely to be together and so produce the above story. It is much easier, and not a huge stretch, to suggest the wrong murder is being referenced in this story, but I was wondering if anyone has looked into this report (they don't say anything about it in Evan's and Skinner).

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Not sure about this, but its possible.

Yes, I know it's not a straight forward case with Packer, given that he changed his story.

Though the basic claim that he saw Stride with a man who bought something from him was never challenged. The Smith suspect was carrying a newspaper parcel & the most likely package would be those half-pound of grapes wrapped up in newspaper.

I know Packer was confused between 11:00 & 11:30, or 12:00 & 12:30 for the events he recalled witnessing, but the fact PC Smith also saw a man at that same location, carrying a parcel, and with Stride, basically dressed the same, pretty well confirms Packer's 12:00 & 12:30 timing.
This should come as no surprise, we have always known Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms around 11:00, so if Packer saw anyone or anything, it was between 12:00 & 12:30.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think you're following, Abby.

Stride might have been killed by a club member, she might not. She might have been picked up by someone, they went into the yard for some slap & tickle, and while her guard was down she was killed. I struggle to accept that BS Man was the perpetrator. The forensics do not add up.

Regardless of who killed Stride, the club still had to distance themselves from the crime. That's why Schwartz described an altercation off-premises, with an attacker hurling an antisemitic slur.

im following harry I just dont agree. Im not one for phantom rippers or conspiracies. ill leave it at that

[Harry D]

so someone not necessarily a member of the club is going to join in on a club conspiracy(when a club member is not necessarily involved in the murder either) to all lie to the police in a murder investigation when none of them may have actually been involved in her murder? seriously??

and lying or not, Schwartz did insert himself into the investigation. what does he possibly gain, except a whole lot of legal trouble, for lying about it? an attaboy from the local jews? cmon Harry.

I don't think you're following, Abby.

Stride might have been killed by a club member, she might not. She might have been picked up by someone, they went into the yard for some slap & tickle, and while her guard was down she was killed. I struggle to accept that BS Man was the perpetrator. The forensics do not add up.

Regardless of who killed Stride, the club still had to distance themselves from the crime. That's why Schwartz described an altercation off-premises, with an attacker hurling an antisemitic slur.

[Abby Normal]

1. Never said Schwartz was a member of the club. He may have been 'connected' to members and decided to take one for the tribe.
2. Never said that a club member killed Stride, although it's entirely possible. They just knew it didn't look good to have a murder victim next to their club when the Whitechapel series was fuelling the antisemitism in the area.
3. It has crossed my mind before that Schwartz could've been the killer, but I don't see what he had to gain from inserting himself into the investigation.

I take it we don't know who the "friend" was who acted as interpreter for Schwartz? I've seen it speculated that it was Woolf Wess, member of the IWEC, who acted in the same capacity for Leon Goldstein.

so someone not necessarily a member of the club is going to join in on a club conspiracy(when a club member is not necessarily involved in the murder either) to all lie to the police in a murder investigation when none of them may have actually been involved in her murder? seriously??

and lying or not, Schwartz did insert himself into the investigation. what does he possibly gain, except a whole lot of legal trouble, for lying about it? an attaboy from the local jews? cmon Harry.

[Michael W Richards]

1. Never said Schwartz was a member of the club. He may have been 'connected' to members and decided to take one for the tribe.
2. Never said that a club member killed Stride, although it's entirely possible. They just knew it didn't look good to have a murder victim next to their club when the Whitechapel series was fuelling the antisemitism in the area.
3. It has crossed my mind before that Schwartz could've been the killer, but I don't see what he had to gain from inserting himself into the investigation.

I take it we don't know who the "friend" was who acted as interpreter for Schwartz? I've seen it speculated that it was Woolf Wess, member of the IWEC, who acted in the same capacity for Leon Goldstein.

1. Could have been a favor, or repayment for subsidized living in a cottage in the passageway perhaps.
2. Maybe one did, maybe one didn't, but anyone who was on that property that night was linked with the club that night anyway.
3. He certainly wasn't of interest to the Inquest, what he did for the club is huge...his story placed the victim wrestling with a gentile assailant outside the gates. Huge.

Wess did translate for Goldstein, there is every reason to assume he likely did so for any non-English club affiliated personage.