For what reason do we include Stride?

[Wickerman]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

A "footway" is constructed for the purpose of foot traffic, so yes it is a sidewalk.
A "footway" can be asphalt or stone paving (flags).
It is also stated in some accounts that it is unlawful for wheeled carriages to be on footways. Which is the case for footpaths/sidewalks, but not entrances to yards whether paved or cobbled. This only serves to clarify that the victorian term "footway" was a paved section of the common street running along both sides of the road, not the resurfaced entrance to a yard.

[Sam Flynn]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

Not necessarily, if "sidewalk" always means "a pathway on the side of a public road". A footway could be anywhere a pedestrian might walk (e.g "way or path for pedestrians, such as a raised walk along the edge of a bridge" - Collins Dictionary).

[Abby Normal]

is foot way the same thing as sidewalk?

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

Hello Jon.

Two small details come to mind.

In reviewing press cuttings there is a possibility that the term 'mud' is being used as a euphemism for horse dropping.

Dutfields Yard was cobblestone, not grass or soil, so the fact Stride had 'mud' on her side may only mean she fell on some horse dung, not on soil.
The yard was cobblestones.

Stride could have fallen a second time on the paving or cobbles where there was no horse dung therefore no direct evidence would be present indicating a second fall.


The second point, "footway" means pavement, paving flags, or footpath in English terminology.

Here is mention of a footway on both sides of the street, ie footpath.



If Stride was assaulted on the footway, then she was assaulted outside the gates, on the common footpath.

[Abby Normal]

What do you think about the mud evidence, Abby ?

The mud found on her matches how she was found on her left side.
If she had been thrown to the floor twice, once by BS Man, and again by the phantom killer, there would be extra mud on her ie on her arse or knees, or something similar.
So.... she was only thrown to the floor once, and we have a witness to that.

What d`ya reckon .. bollocks ?

Hi Jon
One thing I have little doubt is that BS man, AKA peaked cap to me, was strides killer and JTR.

I have a lot of little scenarios on how the specifics of the BS man/stride murder may have went down.

the one I favor:
BS man is the man that Marshall, schwartz and probably the PC saw with stride. perhaps Best too, but just got the hat completely wrong.


BS man meets stride somewhere, perhaps the pub, and is trying to finagle her to a secluded spot. Shes not going-I think because she was not actively soliciting, maybe wary of the ripper murders-she just broken up and seems to me to be out having a good time maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfreind/sugar daddy.

BS man getting more frustated-hes spending time and money on her-perhaps bought her drinks, flower,cashoo and shes still not going.


finally after one last time to try to get her to a secluded spot she refuses and he loses his temper and attacks her at the club, cutting her throat.


I think more than likely, schwartz saw the attack/beginning of the attack, just didnt specifically see him cut her throat.


Her hand goes to her throat, BS man skidaddles, stride stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard.

[Batman]

The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

However, they were thwarted by the 'real' JtR who ended up doing his best to blame the Jews by writing the Goulston St. Graffiti and dropping a piece of Eddowes Apron right in the heart of a Jewish area also?

JtR was trying to pin it on Jews then.

Just like he was obviously trying to pin it on Jews in Berner St.

Why was he trying to pin it on the Jews?

Because there was anti-semitic mania at the time heightened by the murders. Pizer! The fact the GSG was rubbed out demonstrates this is the case.

A Jew at the time would have to be out of his raving mind to murder a woman right next to a Jewish socialist club in the dead of night in the middle of all of this. Everyone in the club was searched. You would need a CONSPIRACY THEORY to support this version of unlikely events.

[Sam Flynn]

Which still leaves us with...what was she doing there, and why would someone kill her?

There to clean the club after a large meeting...a job she got from one of her regular jewish customers who is a club member, and the hired thug thought she was there to spy. The reason the most closely affiliated with the club, Wess, Eagle, Diemshutz, all claimed to have seen nothing is because they didn't actually see what happened, Wess had left, Eagle arrived just after it happened, as did Louis, but when Schwartz talks to Wess later that day they decide that this witnessed assault would be far less damaging to the club if it happened off their property. The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

Blimey, you don't half like your conspiracy theories, Michael! Ingenious, nonetheless. That said, I doubt that she was there for a cleaning job, given that she'd earlier got herself spruced up for a night out. The fact that her activities that night happened in her old (but recent) stomping-ground of St George's in the East might indicate that she was known to her killer for reasons other than cleaning duties. Indeed, Berner Street was within spitting-distance of Devonshire Street, where she and Michael Kidney had both lived and, I believe, where Kidney was to live again. That she met her end at the hands of a jealous old flame (or her current one) seems a reasonable possibility to me.

[Jon Guy]

Interesting Jon
ive always interpreted the wording here to mean this happened in front of the gateway on the streetside, but I guess it leaves it open to happeing inside the gate..basically in the yard. need to digest this a little more.

What do you think about the mud evidence, Abby ?

The mud found on her matches how she was found on her left side.
If she had been thrown to the floor twice, once by BS Man, and again by the phantom killer, there would be extra mud on her ie on her arse or knees, or something similar.
So.... she was only thrown to the floor once, and we have a witness to that.

What d`ya reckon .. bollocks ?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

Interesting Jon
ive always interpreted the wording here to mean this happened in front of the gateway on the streetside, but I guess it leaves it open to happeing inside the gate..basically in the yard. need to digest this a little more.

[Michael W Richards]

Ive suggested what I believe is a very plausible storyline that includes Schwartz here in the past....Israel attended the meeting, its why he wasn't at home unpacking in his new place. He was leaving just before a quarter to 12, via the side door into the passageway, when he sees a woman just inside the gates, close to the club wall, arguing physically with a man likely there as a hired security man. Just for that meeting...which the polarizing William Morris was initially going to speak at. The woman has her back against the club wall and the man is poking her in the chest talking to her. She brushes by him to leave the passageway and get out into the street when he grabs her by her scarf from behind, pulls and twists it, she loses her balance, tips back from the waist to her left, the man runs a knife under her neck and pulls back, slicing both her neck and the twisted hanky tight around her neck. He then lets go of the hanky and she drops.

That works with ALL the physical evidence, with the medical opinion, and with the physical circumstances. Which still leaves us with...what was she doing there, and why would someone kill her?

There to clean the club after a large meeting...a job she got from one of her regular jewish customers who is a club member, and the hired thug thought she was there to spy. The reason the most closely affiliated with the club, Wess, Eagle, Diemshutz, all claimed to have seen nothing is because they didn't actually see what happened, Wess had left, Eagle arrived just after it happened, as did Louis, but when Schwartz talks to Wess later that day they decide that this witnessed assault would be far less damaging to the club if it happened off their property. The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

For me that satisfies most of the questions as to why, and it also cleanly reduces the evening to the Single Event. Something which I believe accurately reflects the known evidence. Kate was ripped. Maybe by Jack, maybe by someone else, but Liz was most certainly not.

[Jon Guy]

Hi jon
“ in the gateway” and threw her down in the pathway, ive always thought to mean in front of the gates on street side.

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

[Abby Normal]

I don`t even think there was an initial assault in the street, Abby
I don`t recall Schwartz stating it took place in the street.
Both statements by Schwartz (both translated into English by different people) state that the assault took place in the passageway ( where the body is found)

Judging by the mud on her dress, it seems she was only thrown down once that evening, and that was when she was killed.
If BS Man had thrown her on the floor, and them she was thrown on the floor again by the phantom killer she would have more mud on her, or mud on her in other places that correspond with how she was lying

Hi jon
“ in the gateway” and threw her down in the pathway, ive always thought to mean in front of the gates on street side.

[Batman]

Hi Batman I think the point should be made that he needn't have done anything after assaulting Liz, [neither kill her nor Kate]. He could have just gone home, cooled down realizing that he had been compromised and struck on another night, in a different area [let's say further west of Aldgate for instance]. Then there would be virtually nothing to connect him to Jack.

I think 'need' in terms of a serial sexual homicide offender is very different from what 'need' means to normal people.

In terms of the double murder, these crimes have all the hallmarks of an offender unable to achieve their signature (ripping) which is vital to the emotional need they set to get.

JtR didn't get it with Stride.

Also, he would have been decompensating following a failed attempt which explains him taking bigger risks that can get him caught (Mitre Square).

So quite the opposite of what you think would happen, could happen, namely, instead of fleeing and going into cool down mode, he doubles down on finding a victim to achieve the signature he needs. As is demonstrated throughout crime history with many of these offenders.

Furthermore, the GSG is aimed at Jews following what appears to be Jews getting in his way with Stride certainly and then again with Lewende and friends.

I am surprised that the people who think that Stride was murdered by a Jew at the socialist club on Berner St., aren't putting together that JtR was perhaps playing to people's fears that a Jew was responsible for the murders.

An assault on a woman at night during the Whitechapel murders is exactly the sort of thing LE at the time would wanted to have known about. Consider Leather Apron. What we he guilty of? Look what happened to Piser. He was let go because he didn't do anything, but suspicion was enough to have half of London after him.

We can be guaranteed that JtR assaulted other women before the Whitechapel murders and during them, which went unreported.

Here is another red blotchy faced person for example doing just that...

A little after midnight on March 28 1888, thirty-nine-year-old Ada Wilson, a dress maker, was sitting in her room at 9 Maidman Street, Mile End, when there was a knock on the door.

Opening it, she found a man aged about thirty, who was around five foot six in height, and who had a fair moustache and a sunburnt face standing outside. His clothes consisted of a dark coat, light trousers and a wide-awake hat. The man threatened to kill her if she didn’t give him money. When Ada refused, he took out a clasp-knife and stabbed her twice in the throat.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps, Darryl, he`d just killed her when he looked up and noticed Schwartz, and then he left the scene (hence no mutilations).

Hi Jon, I think if this were the case then there would be blood splatter on the road/pavement. If he slit her throat in the passageway before he noticed Schwartz then I doubt he would have seen him.

[Jon Guy]

What seems to be forgotten is that if BS didn't see Schwartz or pipeman for that matter until after he had thrown Liz to the ground, then why go on and kill her?

Perhaps, Darryl, he`d just killed her when he looked up and noticed Schwartz, and then he left the scene (hence no mutilations).