For what reason do we include Stride?

[Darryl Kenyon]

So if there was no light in the passageway it would follow this would be an ideal place for Jack to strike, just let Liz lead him there. Yet if we are to believe BS man was Jack then why attack, and pull her into the street, doesn't make sense. Yet if BS was her killer and not Jack then how come Liz is found dead in the yard with no obvious signs of a struggle? It seems a bit square pegs round holes to me.
Regards Darryl

[Robert St Devil]

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

Oh hi, herlock. At around 12:15a, Wm. West is standing at the kitchen door, about 18 ft from the gate. He can observe that the gates are open, which tells me that there is some light in the street. But, he says none of that light illuminates the yard, which gives me an impression that there is a gloom between the kitchen door and the gate. The only light he mentions is coming from a few first floor windows above him. He describes the yard as dark. Maybe a half hour later, Morris Eagle walks by the spot of her murder, but it was so dark that he couldn't observe anything on the ground. I don't know how high Diemschutz was sitting off the ground , but he can't make out that there's a murdered woman by the wheel of his cart. And, I think I remember this being the site where the building next to the IWEC formed a shade-wall. To me, at least, it seems like the spot where her body was found was gloomy and extremely dark, and had been pitch since 12:15a. If removing a woman's organs was the Ripper's original intent that night, it's not described as being an ideal location for a murderer in the habit of cutting his victims open on the pavement. I can at least say that there was some light in Mitre Square based on the symmetry of those cheek cuts.

Apologies for straying from the thread's question.

[natalie84]

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

Respectfully, I find it odd to think it more improbable that no such events would have occurred in the course of the killer's activities than that they would.

Like… this was a murderer operating (usually) in public spaces in a majour metropolitan area, in a time and place where sex workers, drunks, police constables, vagrants and early morning labourers would all be out in the street. What strikes me as unusual and 'deux ex machina' isn't that the killer's activities might be interrupted by Schwartz, Diemschutz or even a sudden loss of lighting, but rather that this DIDN'T happen more FREQUENTLY.

The killer was able to blend into the general tumult and chaos of Whitechapel, and to take advantage of it and its citizens desensitization to violence, conflict, screams, whatever, but he wasn't able to control or halt it. Unless we're talking about Tabram or Kelly, where he had privacy, sooner or later someone would stumble upon the scene.

As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

[harry]

If there was light in the yard when the killer and Stride entered,then it would have been possible for the couple to have been seen.Would the killer,under those circumstances begin an attack.?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

You have no sense of the dramatic Sam

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

I don't see that as an insurmountable obstacle if he had the desire to mutilate Stride's body. It would certainly make it more difficult if he were trying to obtain a particular organ but if all he wanted to do was open her abdomen and rip I don't see it as a problem and a reason to leave the scene.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

Its certainly not an insurmountable obstacle as you say. I was just trying to come up with a possible reason for a delay after the first stroke of the knife with the killer thinking ‘damn’ as the lights go out resulting in a pause followed by an interruption (whether Diemschutz or the side door opening or whatever.)

[Sam Flynn]

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

[c.d.]

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

Hello Herlock,

I don't see that as an insurmountable obstacle if he had the desire to mutilate Stride's body. It would certainly make it more difficult if he were trying to obtain a particular organ but if all he wanted to do was open her abdomen and rip I don't see it as a problem and a reason to leave the scene.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your answer is rational, Harry. If the entrance to the yard was so dark that a man could walk through it without being able to even see his feet, so dark that Diemschutz had to light a candle to discern that the mass was a woman, and if she was she far enough off the street that no light touched her, it could be that Jack the Ripper found the location not to be ideal for his purposes based on the lighting.

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

[Robert St Devil]

The person cutting Strides throat would have been working in almost complete darkness,so his actions would have been more by touch than by sight.Pehaps also there might have been slight resistence at the beginning,so two cuts,just to make sure,is a reasonable explanation.

Your answer is rational, Harry. If the entrance to the yard was so dark that a man could walk through it without being able to even see his feet, so dark that Diemschutz had to light a candle to discern that the mass was a woman, and if she was she far enough off the street that no light touched her, it could be that Jack the Ripper found the location not to be ideal for his purposes based on the lighting.

[c.d.]

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the police found evidence of his heavy drinking and abuse. My memory is faulty but I think he was arrested and Stride chose not to press charges (somebody please confirm). There is no record of an identification by Schwartz so we are pretty much left with either police stupidity or a verified alibi.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

In you're reply to Michael...

.....Nothing in the evidence comes anywhere near to categorically proving that Stride wasn’t a ripper victim. She may or she may not have been....
I accept the possibility of both propositions because the evidence cannot furnish us with a definitive verdict.

Im undecided..... Abby appears to be strongly of the opinion that she was. Neither of you are idiots. You are both well versed in the case. And if we asked every ripperologists their opinion I’d guess at a pretty mixed bag of verdicts. At the very least this shows that this issue isn’t a done deal.

Absolutely agree, this is an 'on the fence' issue for me too.
I can see the value in both sides of the argument, yet one of them must be wrong.

Dr Phillips thought the knife used was a short blade (as opposed to Dr. Gordon Brown "at least 6 inches long").
And the chosen place too public for a conventional Ripper killing (compare: Mitre Sq, Hanbury St., Bucks Row), all dark secluded places with little to no expected foot traffic.
This doesn't apply to Dutfields Yard and the hooting & hollering coming from the Club just feet away.

[Sam Flynn]

Why not? It goes to the thread's topic.

Actually, it's quite a different matter, in that we could easily discuss Stride's viability as a Ripper victim without getting side-tracked by the somewhat futile task of identifying her killer.

[APerno]

Hello APerno,

Kidney interjected himself into the investigation. But any investigation (i.e, questioning individuals who knew Stride) should have turned up information that Stride previously lived with him but had recently moved out. They also should have found out that Kidney was apparently a heavy drinker and that he had previously been physically abusive to her. Now if that information didn't make him a person of interest then the police would have to have been incredibly stupid and incompetent. If we assume that they were not then it is reasonable to assume that they asked him where he was that night. If he had an alibi, it is reasonable to assume that they confirmed it rather than simply take his word for it. If he had no alibi, it is reasonable to assume that they would have had Schwartz take a look at him. This is all basic police investigation 101. Yes, that is a lot if assumptions but the alternative is to accept that Scotland Yard was the equivalent of the Keystone Cops.

As for them foregoing an investigation of Kidney because they believed this to be a Ripper murder how could the police be assured that Kidney wasn't the Ripper?

c.d.

Thanks for the reply. Good point, for them, then. We today realize that a serial killer would never kill someone they can be associated with (unless it's his first killing, so they say.)

You say assumptions, but you are saying there is evidence of heavy drinking and 'spousal' abuse, just not confirmation of CD's actions? There is no record that they showed him to Schwartz?

IMHO Today the police would have jumped all over the last person Stride was seen with which makes me wonder why CD didn't use Schwartz more; today the police would have been combing the area for the 'Lipski' man and Schwartz would be their go to guy.

[Wickerman]

Kidney showed up at the inquest, if he was the 'broadshouldered-man' who was seen assaulting Stride, and therefore the presumed murderer. That was a highly risky & stupid thing to do.
This fact alone suggests to me Kidney had no role in her murder.