For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

Calm down, dear! I don't have a preconceived theory; just trying to reconstruct her final movements, that's all. If she wanted one final sweet before death, or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood, that simply makes it all the more poignant. Whether true or not, I still find it difficult to see that she was so suddenly bumped off she couldn't even manage to drop a bag of sweets. Not that it matters much either way.

LOL> Sam I wasn't talking specifically about your post-which is why I didn't use quote function!!!

or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood,

now that's not a bad idea-the best one yet Ive heard other than she just held on to them during the attack! never seen this one before.

[Sam Flynn]

to try to deny this just means you cant grasp the idea because you think something else should happen or it dosnt fit with some pre conceived theory.

Calm down, dear! I don't have a preconceived theory; just trying to reconstruct her final movements, that's all. If she wanted one final sweet before death, or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood, that simply makes it all the more poignant. Whether true or not, I still find it difficult to see that she was so suddenly bumped off she couldn't even manage to drop a bag of sweets. Not that it matters much either way.

[Abby Normal]

the cashoo is the biggest red herring in ripperology.

she simply held on to them through the attack and death. one can come up with all kinds of reasons and excuses that she SHOULD have dropped them. she didn't. simple as that.


its common knowledge now that victims will do this. Its not that uncommon that murdered victims will be found still clutching something in there hand. Even victims of violent car accidents do this.

to try to deny this just means you cant grasp the idea because you think something else should happen or it dosnt fit with some pre conceived theory.

she held on to them get over it.

[Sam Flynn]

Just a thought Sam but if she lost conciousness straight away, not sure, but do the hands not tighten?

I'm not sure either, but I think it's unlikely she'd have lost consciousness right away in any case, even with a swift cut to the throat. Besides, I'd guess that letting go of a packet of sweets would take only milliseconds.

[Darryl Kenyon]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

Just a thought Sam but if she lost conciousness straight away, not sure, but do the hands not tighten?
Regards Darryl

[Sam Flynn]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

[Darryl Kenyon]

If the killer came up behind Liz, cutting her throat swiftly and silently pulling her back with the scarf as he did so whilst lowering her to the ground [maybe trying to avoid a thud] , and she never even saw him. Thus no time to react. How long would it before she lost conciousness?
If her hand was in a sort of fist holding the cachous, would it still not be as she reached for her scarf in the second or two before she lost conciousness?

[DJA]

Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying, she dying in a fainting condition from the loss of blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand

[Wickerman]

Or he handed her the packet, pretending sympathy after her encounter with BS man, and then struck while she was distracted, examining the gift?

Various possibilities here.

Love,

Caz
X

One of the possibilities, in my mind, is that this packet of cachous was not in the hand at all. That would solve all these questions about how she could hold onto them.

I would expect the packet to be in the palm of her hand, but apparently this was not the case. Blackwell specified that the packet was lodged between the forefinger & the thumb, but that is not exactly 'in the hand'.
As her left hand was laid on the ground, palm up, then her hand might have fallen right beside this packet of cachous that were on the ground.
As her fingers (and thumb) curled up, the packet was trapped between the forefinger & thumb.

[c.d.]

Take Kidney out of the equation, then. Is the scenario still workable?

Hello Harry,

Are you suggesting her killer was a club member? Perhaps you might want to weigh in on my other thread whether the club would cover for him.

And if her killer was a club member can you come up with a motive for him? Jealousy perhaps?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I agree Gareth, you would think that even with the briefest of struggles she’d have let go of them to use both hands. Could she have tried to defend herself by making a fist with the cashous in that hand?

Hello Herlock,

A fist is best for punching. If she were being dragged into the yard you would expect her palms to be open trying to push her assailant away. I have tried this with friends (not telling them why till afterwords) and they have all attempted to push me away with their palm open.

If her assailant had his hand over her mouth trying to prevent her from crying out, you would expect her to use her fingers with the palm open to try to pry his fingers away.

Both scenarios favor the palm open which would have made it hard to hold on to the cachous.

I have to conclude that she took the cachous out after the BS man left and before she met her killer.

c.d.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

I certainly don't see Kidney as the BS man. Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not provide one I think they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

c.d.

Take Kidney out of the equation, then. Is the scenario still workable?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS

Having recently broken up with kidney, Stride was probably hoping BS man was her new man, unfortunately he was the ripper.

Hi Abby,

Certainly a possibility.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe, but I find it likely that she'd let them go as she died, put up a defence and/or struggled for her life.

I agree Gareth, you would think that even with the briefest of struggles she’d have let go of them to use both hands. Could she have tried to defend herself by making a fist with the cashous in that hand?

[Sam Flynn]

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that.

Agreed about the possibility of cadaveric spasm, although that doesn't always happen. However, I still wonder how she could, or would, have held onto the sweet packet before death, let alone before any spasm kicked in.