For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

Hi cd
Ive always maintained the possibility that after bs man cuts her throat he bolts, her hand goes to the neck wound and she tries to make her way toward the voices in the club but expires in the yard.

But wouldn't that still have left a blood trail and wouldn't her hand have been covered in blood? Also, her body was found looking like it had been gently laid down. If what you are positing is true you would expect her body to have fallen in a heap.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

That is certainly possible but the police would have pushed Schwartz strongly on that point and since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer after the B.S. man it would seem that Schwartz would have been quite clear that Stride was alive when he ran off.

Also, Stride didn't die where she was seen by Schwartz and there was no blood trail leading back into the yard so why would the B.S. man bother to drag a dying body after having been seen by two witnesses?

c.d.

Hi cd
Ive always maintained the possibility that after bs man cuts her throat he bolts, her hand goes to the neck wound and she tries to make her way toward the voices in the club but expires in the yard.

[c.d.]

He might have seen her getting her throat cut and just didnt realize it

Hello Abby,

That is certainly possible but the police would have pushed Schwartz strongly on that point and since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer after the B.S. man it would seem that Schwartz would have been quite clear that Stride was alive when he ran off.

Also, Stride didn't die where she was seen by Schwartz and there was no blood trail leading back into the yard so why would the B.S. man bother to drag a dying body after having been seen by two witnesses?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I have to wonder just how vicious the B.S. man's "attack" could have been if it didn't even dislodge a packet of cachous wrapped in tissue from a woman's hand.

And please don't bring up instances of people clutching things in their hands in death. We are simply talking about what Schwartz said he saw and that is a woman being pushed or thrown to the ground. He did NOT see her being killed.

c.d.

He might have seen her getting her throat cut and just didnt realize it

[DJA]

Reckon Jack arrived on the scene and offered the cachous to Stride after BS man left.

[c.d.]

I have to wonder just how vicious the B.S. man's "attack" could have been if it didn't even dislodge a packet of cachous wrapped in tissue from a woman's hand.

And please don't bring up instances of people clutching things in their hands in death. We are simply talking about what Schwartz said he saw and that is a woman being pushed or thrown to the ground. He did NOT see her being killed.

c.d.

[APerno]

I don't understand how the saucy jacky postcard confirms the connection.

If the Dear Boss and saucy jacky postcard are the invention of a journalist (I'm a big Harry Dam fan) then of course the author of the postcard prima facie would connect the two murders and create a wonderful sound bite like "double event."

The creation of the phrase didn't need the author to hold any forensic knowledge; just journalistic (yellow press) opportunism at play. Given the situation (opportunity to sell papers) the postcard author would have likely linked the death of any two sex workers as a 'double event' regardless of the forensics involved; it was just good press.

Besides how much time between observation, composition, and mailing (of the postcard) was available anyway? Certainly not enough to do any kind of real forensic investigation.

[c.d.]

Thank you, Sam (I think). I don't why you people across the pond can't speak correctly.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

"Knew a sausage?" Translation please, Caz.

I'm not Caz, but "to not know a sausage about X" is "to know nothing about X". Sausages appeal to other modalities, as in "I hadn't heard a sausage that Dave had been ill", or "I was looking for it all the time, but I didn't see a sausage".

I don't know the origin of this, but I wonder if "sausage" might be loose rhyming slang for "smidge", i.e. "a tiny amount".

[c.d.]

"For the same reason the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard did. He knew a thing or two about a classic 'Double Event' before pretty much anyone else knew a sausage."

"Knew a sausage?" Translation please, Caz.

Where do you come up with these expressions? I'm still working on "big girl's blouse."

c.d.

[caz]

Following on...

I would also allow for the possibility of a double event within the double event, whereby the killer - the ripper IMHO - watched Stride being manhandled, heard the Lipski slur and saw Schwartz witnessing the incident, and then waded in when both men had left the scene, striking while she was preoccupied with dusting herself off, regaining her composure and possibly taking the cachous from her pocket. In that way, the two assaults wouldn't have been a terribly unlikely coincidence, but would merely involve an opportunistic killer taking advantage of a not uncommon incident of an unfortunate being abused on the streets of Whitechapel.

The bonus would be that the abuser would be seen as the obvious suspect, while the ripper would not have been seen with his victim at the crucial time. The downside may have been the approaching pony and cart, or the comings and goings of club members, if he was obliged to put his mutilation fantasies on hold, and flee the scene after inflicting the single fatal knife wound. If he was determined to find satisfaction before calling it a night, we know Eddowes was available and we know her killer certainly filled his boots in Mitre Square.

In 2005, Mark Dixie murdered Sally Anne Bowman in leafy South Croydon, after watching her having an argument with her boyfriend in his car, parked outside her house. When she finally got out and her boyfriend drove off, Dixie struck, swiftly and silently with no witnesses. The attack was particularly brutal, having followed an earlier non-fatal assault in a nearby street, where Dixie was foiled by an approaching taxi. Sally's boyfriend immediately became the prime suspect for her murder and was only cleared by DNA evidence, which was eventually found to match Dixie's, when he was arrested the following year for a pub fight.

So this was not only a genuine double event, but the second victim, Sally Anne Bowman, found herself in trouble with two men who happened to be on the spot, on a sleepy and deserted residential street, within seconds of each other. No coincidence though, because Dixie was watching and waiting to pounce when the coast was clear.

For what reason do I include Stride?

For the same reason the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard did. He knew a thing or two about a classic 'Double Event' before pretty much anyone else knew a sausage.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.

Hi Michael,

I note that you had written previously to Batman:

I realize that 3 women had their throats slit on one night, and that a Double Event is a constructed theory, not an established fact.

If the Double Event was a constructed theory, it was constructed very soon after the murders of Stride and Eddowes, by the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard, who had written the Dear Boss letter a few days before he could have known that two more unfortunates would soon be dead from a slit throat within a quarter of an hour's walk from each other, and about an hour apart in time, turning Nichols and Chapman into victims of a potential serial killer, many decades before the ever growing phenomenon was even called serial killing. Today we have too many well documented cases of double events by serial killers to deny the phenomenon could have existed back in 1888, and the sender of that infamous postcard certainly knew his onions and was significantly more clued up on the subject and its mysteries, by early October of that year, than many of today's armchair tecs, and therefore better qualified to comment - whether he had up close and very personal experience or was merely a particularly prescient and observant observer.

Love,

Caz
X

[Batman]

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.

My signature reads "canonical and then some..." meaning I probably accept a C6 at the very least.

This case is classic lust murder escalation with an anchor point around Flower & Dean.

The C5 are linked by the way they had their throats cut while prostrate. All the medical examiners note clearly, no blood down front.

[Michael W Richards]

I can imagine the scenario you describe, though lies involving a number of people that have been hurriedly put together, tend to fall apart just as quickly. I think the police would likely have spotted a group lie.

They might have, if there were so many differing accounts. eagle and Diemshutz likely cooked up the premise..no one saw anything and Louis found her after 1am..and Sunday night they add Israel, a friend of Wess's, to suggest an onsite beginning to the murder, by a gentile. Problem for those guys was they didnt have time to huddle with other members to get them on the same page, thats why Issac's account disagrees with Louis and Eagle, as does Heschbergs and Gillens. And Spooners too, someone with nothing to lose and no reason to lie...like Fanny. Or James Brown.

4 people said they were by the body near 12:45...tell me, do we have 4 people corroboration in ANY other alleged Ripper murder? And yet people want to believe that the people who bore the greatest risk to their livelihood were more truthful.

I think every Ripperologist needs to have an understanding of average people before they tackle killers.

[Michael W Richards]

MWR, you don't believe there is a JTR do you?

I do not believe that there was any serial boogyman, no. I believe someone mentally ill killed 2, perhaps 3 women within the Canonical Group.

I am not taking any such approach except the ones laid out by Sugden, Rumbelow, Begg, etc.

Since you mention these fine researchers/authors Ill let you know that I asked Stewart Evans on here in the past what he thinks, and its in line with my own thoughts.

All the C5 had their neck's cut while prostrate.

There is no evidence that was the case in all the C5, and it certainly isnt the case with Liz Stride.

That's a major link because it's very rare.

If they all had that in common, sure, but all there is.. as of this very moment.. is speculation about that.

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.