saving Liz Stride

[perrymason]

On that last bit......one witness stated that he returned to the Club after dropping off his date for the meeting at 12:40am, and went inside to join the singing men upstairs. He states that he is very afraid of the sight of blood during his testimony....but he also states that when he heard that a woman was bleeding to death in the yard, I believe from a member named Gillen, he then hurriedly tumbles down the stairs "pell-mell" to get a look at the body. Presumably, Gillen gets this news from Diemshutz when he rushes in downstairs....but I thought all the male members were upstairs singing at that time...so where was this Gillen?

This witness also makes a point of injecting into his account that the body may have been there when he passed at 12:40am, but that he would have most probably seen it. We know from the evidence where Liz was found, how wide the gates were and the space between the wall and the cottages, we know there was a path to the side door, some of Liz's blood eventually makes it almost to that door...and we know that despite the pitch black location she was found in that Diemshutz saw a shape there before he even lit a match.

My best regards....again.



edited to add: Yeah, I mean to suggest that Morris Eagle was Liz Strides all night date plan.

[c.d.]

What exactly does it mean if we say that "Liz was not working" that night? It is not like Liz had a 9 to 5 job or some office to go to. Her "office" was pretty much everywhere. Her profession was an iffy one that had no guaranteed salary per day. There was competition. She was pretty much living day to day. Taking a day off would seem to be a real luxury. Taking a day off doesn't really require that she literally took the whole day off as it would if she had a regular job to go to. It might simply mean that her intention was not to solicit that evening for whatever reason but if presented with an offer late at night might have decided that it was worth accepting. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation.

c.d.

[perrymason]

What exactly does it mean if we say that "Liz was not working" that night? It is not like Liz had a 9 to 5 job or some office to go to. Her "office" was pretty much everywhere. Her profession was an iffy one that had no guaranteed salary per day. There was competition. She was pretty much living day to day. Taking a day off would seem to be a real luxury. Taking a day off doesn't really require that she literally took the whole day off as it would if she had a regular job to go to. It might simply mean that her intention was not to solicit that evening for whatever reason but if presented with an offer late at night might have decided that it was worth accepting. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation.

c.d.

Unfortunately cd as long as there is some belief that Liz met her demise while soliciting, the belief that she was killed by Jack remains constant. And for a long time people like myself have been suggesting that in purely investigative terms, her murder cannot be assumed to have been committed by a killer who has exhibited a demonstrated commitment to postmortem mutilations.

If she wasnt soliciting....then that doesnt mean she wasnt killed by the man known as The Ripper..it just means that she may have had a personal plan on the night she is found murdered, a plan that if it existed, was never made public by the party she may have had that plan with...making her personal life potentially much more germane in this question of her murderer.

Best regards cd

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm having a hard time following these posts, so I won't say a whole lot more, unless for some reason I feel compelled to. But this 'Gillen' you refer to was Diemschutz himself.

As far as persuing a Stride killer other than JTR or Kidney, I very much encourage it. However, a little less fantasy would be in order, and I think you'd enjoy the research process more if you kept your feet grounded in the facts.

One lead worth persuing would the only person suggested in the records as a possible 'second man' in Stride's life. When asked point-blank if there was another man, Michael Kidney mentioned to the corner that he had seen the address of the brother of the man Stride had worked for when living years ago in Hyde Park. It was during Stride's time at Hyde Park that she was courted both by her future husband, John Stride, and an unnamed policeman. It's of course possible that she dated other men during this time, and one of these men may have been the brother of her employer. Kidney stated that the address had since been lost, so that lead does not appear to have followed up at the time. Perhaps it's possible to do so now? It's curious that all those years later, Stride would have that address.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I believe that brother would have been a policeman too If memory serves Tom.

I know you dont think much of the explorations into rationalizing some of the key elements of this murder, nor some of the suggested possibilities. But this murder more than any other Ripper murder lends itself to rational answers....its by far the least complex based on the evidence alone, and by trying to understand what possible reasons Liz might have to be there sober with a flower on her breast and cachous in her hand at 12:45am.

Kate Eddowes was a street prostitute occasionally, and she was drunk by 8pm. Polly was drunk and continued drinking while she solicited. Mary was hammered when we last see her.

Liz is sober and nicely dressed outside a Mens Club.

Best regards

[perrymason]

I forgot to address your comments about facts.....the previous post contains them....so do most all of the sceanrios that have been mentioned by myself and some others.

The facts dont support the claim that she was a Ripper victim.....yet you obviously choose to lean towards that conclusion anyway....making me wonder whose in denial about what true facts are and what they may indicate.

Its not a fact that Schwartz saw anything, nor is it one that Diemshutz did what he said he did or saw what he saw, its not a fact the yard was empty.....they are claims made by witnesses which are not corroborated by anyone else. One of which does not appear in any Inquest records.

The facts are that Liz Stride was cut once while wearing nice attire with a flower arrangement and while holding cachous in a dark yard adjacent a Mens Club with members in attendance. No-one else saw Israel or his story take place...and no-one saw the yard interior other than men who were members of the club.

Hardly a Ripper mystery, ...certainly a simple murder in terms of the evidence. No-one was Ripped in Dutfields Yard.

Best regards TW

[lynn cates]

harmonious

Hello Mike. Yes, it all adds up. A harmonious view.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

Eagle

Hello Mike.

"I mean to suggest that Morris Eagle was Liz Strides all night date plan."

And she could have met him whilst "working among the Jews."

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

next window please

Hello CD.

"What exactly does it mean if we say that "Liz was not working" that night?"

OK, try this.

"I'll get my doss money. See what a jolly bonnet I've got?" [Nichols, working]

"I'll get my doss money. I'll be right back." [Chapman, working]

" 'ere now ducky, got a lint brush? I shan't be back tonight." [Stride, NOT working]

"Taking a day off would seem to be a real luxury."

Possibly so. I bet she was glad that she had that 6d so that she could.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

The idea that the young, handsome Morris Eagle, who had just walked his own girlfriend home, would be dating Liz Stride is laughable. I've suggested in the past he might have been BS Man, but that's as far as I'll go.

While I respect that you (Perry) and Lynn have found each other as Berner Street soulmates, I'm afraid there's nothing rational about your theorizing. The fact that every one of each of your posts contains either factual errors, flights of fancy, or both, tells me you're more interested in the intrigue that the mystery presents than you are at getting to the facts of the case. That's perfectly fine, but please remember that literally hundreds of eyes read your posts and become influenced by your words. That's the only reason I bother posting to these oddball Stride threads at all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. And the brother of the man Stride lived with is not known to have been a policeman. That was another man Stride had dated while being courted by Mr. Stride.

[lynn cates]

equal time

Hello Tom. This thread was started so that the Liz-was-done-by-Jack crowd could get equal time. To date, Archaic has risen to the occasion and suggested that Jack killed Liz by the gates (or just inside) then dragged her, cachous in hand, the 9 or 10 feet to where she was found. That's a start.

Why not offer your OWN forensic reconstruction here? I'm sure we'd all be much obliged.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn,

I've published almost 50 pages on the matter in Ripper Notes magazine. I repeated myself endlessly on Stride threads before you showed up. I'm now tired of doing so. I'm currently writing a two-part essay that I hope Rip will publish. The first part is called 'Exonerating Michael Kidney', which will do just that. It will then present a rogues gallery of other suspects to consider. Some have previously seen print, most have not. Part two will be a close look at Charles Le Grand who I consider to be the 2nd best suspect in the murder of Stride (Jack the Ripper being the first).

Regarding the peripheral mysteries of the case, such as the cachous, the blood drops on the hands, why some people reported grapes, etc., all that was explained in my two-part Berner Street Mystery series in Ripper Notes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

threads

Hello Tom. Thanks. But I presume you did not discuss the body placement on these threads? Very well. We'll carry on alone.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

There's virtually no aspect of the Stride case I haven't discussed. What do you want to know.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

placement

Hello Tom. I am looking for an explanation regarding how she wound up 9 feet inside the gates, head towards the half-open kitchen door, feet towards the gates AND cachous still between thumb and forefinger. And why on her left side, not her back?

The best.
LC