saving Liz Stride

[lynn cates]

scrabble

Hello Archaic. Thanks.

Scrabble? That works for me. Know what a vug is? How about a zax?

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

Jack's Favorite Breath-Mints

After painstaking research, I have finally established Jack's favorite brand of cachous:



Hmm..."vug" and "zax"?? Nope, you got me there.

But I know what "Galeanthropy" is.

It's "the delusion that one is a cat."
My friend Suzi has it bad. Just humor her.

[curious]

Hi, Lynn,

That quote is under witnesses, doctors and coronors, then Blackwell. It's right at the beginning of his testimony.

Well, I'd forgotten the torso murder, but I don't believe it was the same day and within a block or so was it? A little more time and distance, wasn't there?

curious

[lynn cates]

knife wielders

Hello Curious. Right. But there were 2 killers walking the streets.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

tasting cachous

Hello Archaic. Ever taste one? They are mildly disgusting.

A vug is a concavity in a rock; a zax is a device for cutting shingles. Now you are well armed for Scrabble OR a cocktail party.

The best.
LC

[harry]

Getting rid of the notion that BS killed Stride,leaves it open to a Ripper like approach from some other person.That is,someone who gave her a feeling of security,which I feel,must have been present in earlier killings.

The evidence as it is against BS,is of a weak circumstantial nature,and could,I am sure,be easily discounted by a good defence.Stride was a prostitute,who could be said to have tried to coax BS into the yard for business.That in doing so she had grasped at his clothes,and he had pulled back into the street.She had lost her balance and fell.That the witness,who had taken fright and fled,was misinterpreting what he saw.

What I have written,might just be what happened.It is possible.It appeals to me more possible than a man going berserk on seeing a woman.The inference that there must have been an attack,because that is what Schwartz said,is I think,limiting the possibilities.

[lynn cates]

eliminating BS

Hello Harry. There is never a problem, at least for me, in eliminating BS from the equation. (Indeed, my lifetime goal lies in eliminating BS.)

I have no overwhelming objections to your interpretation. Of course, one could even, I think, argue that Schwartz was 1 street over and saw someone else. Remember, he was in process of moving and may have been tired.

The best.
LC

[curious]

Harry,

I don't disagree with your assessent that the Ripper did something that got the victims to trust him.

My first thoughts were along exactly the same line, and I even had a "what if" story that worked in my head that accounted for that and for the newly acquired items the first three victims had.

However, it also seems very possible to me that the Ripper was a man who went out with the intent of killing that night. He lurked in the shadows, trailing the woman he'd chosen for that night's pleasure. He could have been a man who was never seen with a single one of the victims, who were randomly chosen because they happened to catch his attention.

Some of the women had bruises on their hands, which I read to mean that they were grabbed suddenly and jerked into the shadows.

My reconstruction for this question was for this question, but to me seems a possibility for all the victims:

1 -- attracting the killer's attention
2 -- being followed or "stalked" quietly from the shadows as the killer watched and waited
3 -- then the victim wandered alone into a dangerous area that the killer had been waiting for

In this way, the killer was never even seen with the victims. He wore dark clothing and remained in the shadows -- or even was just hanging out in a busy pub, slipping quietly out the door when his quarry left. He was unnoticable and unnoticed.

Just one possibility among so many.

curious

[curious]

(Indeed, my lifetime goal lies in eliminating BS.)
LC

Why is that Lynn? Relative of yours?

Curious

[lynn cates]

shadowy conjecture

Hello Curious. Your conjecture about Jack lurking in the shadows and not being seen is quite plausible and would eliminate virtually all the forensic difficulties in Stride's case.

He would be waiting up the yard, by the stables. Liz is pacing near the kitchen door, awaiting her date from the club. On an outbound pass, Liz pauses for a cachous to ensure her breath is sweet for her date. Jack emerges from his position, grabs her by the scarf, pulls her backwards, cuts, then lays her down on her side. But before he can turn her over he hears a noise from the open door as if someone is about to exit the building and enter the yard. Jack flees.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hi, Lynn,

That quote is under witnesses, doctors and coronors, then Blackwell. It's right at the beginning of his testimony.

Well, I'd forgotten the torso murder, but I don't believe it was the same day and within a block or so was it? A little more time and distance, wasn't there?

curious

Hi Curious,

I dont believe Lynn was suggesting that the Torso murderer might have committed any Canonical Group murders, just that the presence of a Torso murderer implies that at least one man in addition to Jack was killing women in London in the fall of 88'. When you add cases like Martha Tabram or Emma Smith as well, you have what is very likely an area where multiple killers dwelt,..some almost assuredly killing more than once.

The torso was discovered on Oct 2 or 3rd I believe, investigators thought that the body may have been that of a woman who disappeared in late August.

Best regards

[curious]

Hi, Michael,

I didn't take it that Lynn thought the torso murderer had taken out one of the canonicals.

My "what are the chances" referred to more than one murderer out and about working in such a close time and distance frame as Stride and Eddowes.

However, if the moon had been full . . . .

I'm so tired I hope this makes sense.
curious

[perrymason]

Hi, Michael,

I didn't take it that Lynn thought the torso murderer had taken out one of the canonicals.

My "what are the chances" referred to more than one murderer out and about working in such a close time and distance frame as Stride and Eddowes.

However, if the moon had been full . . . .

I'm so tired I hope this makes sense.
curious

It does, and I would only say that a "murderer out working" isnt likely anyone else but Jack. I think many of these attacks murders were escalated assaults and/or robberies, I dont believe the evidence suggests that the men that attacked Emma sought to kill her specifically, nor Annie Millwood, nor Ada Wilson...if her story was accurate.

But someone assuredly wanted to kill Martha Tabram.

And likely someone other than the Tabram killer wanted to kill and then cut into the deceased women.

Liz Stride has all the earmarks of a domestic murder, its more like the 3rd knife murder that night of the "Double Event", when John Brown (not the Stride witness, James), kills his wife by slitting her throat. That may mean a man who just became enraged and killed her...not someone who planned to kill her, or to kill anyone else that night.

We can be fairly sure that Jack went out specifically to murder. But the murderers of some of these other women may have killed due to their violent and aggressive tendencies and their inability to deal with anger in other than physical terms. They may not have compulsions to kill....they may just have the inclination to do so when aggravated.

Liz Stride may have died because she pissed off someone who she thought wouldnt harm her....that implies someone who she didnt see as aggressive or potentially dangerous to herself. Yet, that same man may have slit her throat.

Does that make him a man that went out to kill....or a man who while out lost his temper and killed? Many men carried knives at that time, but how many used them to kill?

I would guess that statistically the men that go out planning to commit murder are rare, but murders themselves do occur almost everyday in every major city.

All the best

[curious]

In the stressful conditions in which these people existed, I find it little wonder they "broke" so often.

curious

[perrymason]

In the stressful conditions in which these people existed, I find it little wonder they "broke" so often.

curious

I think the pent up anger that existed in those neighborhoods is shown well in the stabbing attacks actually. Women having their legs and backsides stabbed, stabbing a blunt object into Emma, stabbing a throat vs slitting one......yet there is for the lack of a better word some "finesse" that was used by Jack when he killed the first 2 women, he subdues them without struggle or loud noise, he cuts their throats so deeply there is no possibility of reversing the effects of that death cut even had they been discovered as he performed the cut. He may have bled the women out to save himself some mess while he worked, and he may have avoided any arterial spray by directing it away from himself.

Thats a murderer. Thats not anger or uncontrolled violent emotions, thats cold and calculated.

A method, a sequence and postmortem actions that require the women to be dead or dying first.

Now.....how does Liz Strides murder match with the above?

Well, its either that it was Jack but he was unable or unwilling to show the activities he becomes famous for after he kills, or it was someone else who became angry and in a moment, maybe 2 seconds, lost his temper and fatally assaulted the woman.

The evidence suggests the 2nd scenario....but the Canonical Group concept suggests the first.

All the best curious