Kate's Last Half Hour

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=Lipsky;n720489]

Thank you for this information, Joshua.

I maintain that there was a blackmail scheme launched way before Chapman's murder, probably before the first attack on February 25, 1888, and for a higher sum.

Source of the blackmail was a sex scandal, probably with hardcore / bdsm / NC elements, aimed at someone who had much more than 100 pounds to lose (public indigation, trial, prison).

And what was the reward for revealing this sex scandal which would have suited every unfortunate?.....who offered it?....which newspaper announced it?

[Lipsky]

[QUOTE=Leanne;n720583]

And what was the reward for revealing this sex scandal which would have suited every unfortunate?.....who offered it?....which newspaper announced it?

I don't really understand the question.
Blackmails are rarely up for public rewards via "newspaper announcements".

[Michael W Richards]

There's no evidence that the robbery took place on the same night, let alone "at the very same time", as her murder. It could have taken place at any time over the weekend when the post office was closed, from Saturday lunchtime to Monday morning.

I believe it was stated that it took place over the weekend Josh, and there was demolition involved. Its not out of place to suggest that the activities were going on at that time and day.

[Michael W Richards]

was she told to take her white handled table knife & pins and needles with her?..

She had everything but the kitchen sink on her Leanne, I wouldn't try to make silk from anything in particular.

The gist of what Im reading in the posts by Lipski and DJ seem to suggest something reminiscent of a Hellfire Club theme, including I would imagine many high profile men, which makes for great drama. The problem I see with that storyline is that it lacks any definitive linkage of any one victim to another victim without anything additional to the existing history... the same city, and in some cases street, at the same time.

The link between Stride and Eddowes is Jewish, (not necessarily in the ethnicity of the killer(s),... for sure, but that doesn't mean they were both the same Jewish factions involved. Nor that they were not just coincidental events later linked by the second killer for reasons that included antisemitism. The rest of its meaning we don't know.

Kates aliases are interesting, and I agree Lipsky that there are clues within those kinds of choices. I am still kind of surprised to find what may be linkage of Kate with Mary in the jumble of both aliases, I do think it was an indication she at least knew of Mary. This seems to me silencing people in some cases, and I don't think we need to interject a Hellfire Club to explain why people were being silenced. Lots of good reasons. Kate may have used blackmail because she happened to know of someone she felt could suit the bill of Jacky. She, and all the women, would know bad street dudes. Its a bit of an occupational hazard on the streets alone in the middle of the night.

[DJA]

More of a Cleveland Street scandal than any Hellfire Club.

Jack was a short shy effeminate medical officer,as far as the women were concerned. And an easy touch.

Totally underestimated him. Probably struck out of fear of being exposed initially.

[Lipsky]

[...] The gist of what Im reading in the posts by Lipski and DJ seem to suggest something reminiscent of a Hellfire Club theme, including I would imagine many high profile men, which makes for great drama. [..]

The link between Stride and Eddowes is Jewish, (not necessarily in the ethnicity of the killer(s),... for sure, but that doesn't mean they were both the same Jewish factions involved. Nor that they were not just coincidental events later linked by the second killer for reasons that included antisemitism. The rest of its meaning we don't know.

Kates aliases are interesting, and I agree Lipsky that there are clues within those kinds of choices. I am still kind of surprised to find what may be linkage of Kate with Mary in the jumble of both aliases, I do think it was an indication she at least knew of Mary. This seems to me silencing people in some cases, and I don't think we need to interject a Hellfire Club to explain why people were being silenced. Lots of good reasons. Kate may have used blackmail because she happened to know of someone she felt could suit the bill of Jacky. She, and all the women, would know bad street dudes. Its a bit of an occupational hazard on the streets alone in the middle of the night.

Thank you, Michael, for your thoughts on this.

As Dave mentioned, and I wholeheartedly agree, more of a Cleveland street than Hellfire club. Cleveland street offers some insightful clues.

Both Dave and I, with our independent assumptions, and thoughts, make a case built on solid (I think) points,
(if anything about this case can be solid).
We may arrive to somewhat different "names" at the last mile of our concepts, but I think this is of secondary importance in relation to the aforementioned points on which we try to make a case.
As you can see, when we try (even from our singular, different perspectives) to bring up the notion that the selection of victims was not random, we are often met with disbelief and a slightly persistent counter-argument that the victims must have been random, without knowing each other.
I fail to grasp the source or indeed the basis for such a claim.
It is impossible to establish who knew whom -- likewise, it is impossible to exclude "as a certainty" who didnt know whom.

The geographical vicinity of the victims is undisputed. This narrows down the physical vicinity even further.
The aliases cannot be random, as the pawning was not random, as the final moments of every victim were not random, in a case NOT triggered by some sex offender's "lust murdering".

Dave and I suggest that these were pre-meditated executions. What triggered them was the decision to "clean house" from fear of expose in the face of blackmail by a poor, desperate bunch of whitechapel locales, with some (limited) assistance from small-scale "bosses".

In my particular understanding/assumptions, antisemitism was a deliberate act of decoy, that could "catch up" with the local population (and the international trend of rising antisemitism) and provide a much broader and more dangerous scapegoat than earlier "Leather Apron/ Pizer". Hence, the locations and the graffiti. This is very much evident by the Met Police's erasing of the graffiti, for fear of a riot. And how concenient that the perpetrator could pull of such a stunt, yet allowed himself graciously to be seen by Jews in both hits, and even making sure his presence was recorded: "Lipsky" in #1, the scathing look towards Lawende and co in #2.
A man who can commit murder within an hour and flee successfully could avoid detection if he wanted. The sighting was therefore deliberate.

I would accept the "bad street dudes" scenario if there was a yearly recording of mutilations by unknown perpetrators in Whitechapel, or anywhere in London for that matter. This isnt the case though. This series of murders is unique , hence cannot be attributed in social factors ruling that area for decades.

In my understanding, some of these "bad street dudes" were in on the scame, as muscles and street ears, along with some of the boyfriends.
Possibly Barnett, John Kelly (that name just keeps poppin up, right?). Hutch is an interesting figure in this.
I see a good potential in Lusk's "vigilantes", I think there's more to that Mishter than meets the eye.
And I'd love to find out more about that "Freddy Fingers" fellow, who was allegedly part of the Spring group and vanished (this, from a police source).
Alleged to be a pimp (I think more of a "street ear" of the "lord") and street "trickster" (read: mugger).
Sounds posh, yes?

[Sam Flynn]

I am still kind of surprised to find what may be linkage of Kate with Mary in the jumble of both aliases, I do think it was an indication she at least knew of Mary.

Despite the fact that Mary was an extremely popular first name, that Ann(e) or Jane were the most popular second names in those days, and that John Kelly's most recent partner (whom Eddowes knew) was named Mary Ann Kelly... against that, we are to believe that Eddowes must have known that comparatively recent arrival in Spitalfields, Mary Jane Kelly. A girl nearly 20 years Eddowes' junior who, since her days in the Ratcliff Highway, had formed apparently steady relationships with working men of her own age group. I see little reason to believe that Eddowes knew her, or of her, at all, and the aliases Eddowes used are easily explicable without invoking some kind of acquaintance with MJK.

[Lipsky]

Despite the fact that Mary was an extremely popular first name, that Ann(e) or Jane were the most popular second names in those days, and that John Kelly's most recent partner (whom Eddowes knew) was named Mary Ann Kelly... against that, we are to believe that Eddowes must have known that comparatively recent arrival in Spitalfields, Mary Jane Kelly. A girl nearly 20 years Eddowes' junior who, since her days in the Ratcliff Highway, had formed apparently steady relationships with working men of her own age group. I see little reason to believe that Eddowes knew her, or of her, at all, and the aliases Eddowes used are easily explicable without invoking some kind of acquaintance with MJK.

Dear Sam:

Nothing about MJK indicates "recent" in the context of her whereabouts, connections and (most of all) experiences in London.

"She arrives in London in 1884."

"According to Joseph Barnett, on arriving in London, Kelly went to work in a high class brothel in the West End. She says that during this time she frequently rode in a carriage and accompanied one gentleman to Paris, which she didn't like and she returned."

"By 1886 she is living in 'Cooley's Lodging House' in Thrawl Street, Spitalfields and it is here that she meets Joseph Barnett"

"In February or March of 1888 they move from Brick Lane to Miller's Court off Dorset Street. Here they occupy a single room which is designated 13 Miller's Court."

This, of course, from the Casebook index on MJK (assuming the name is real; was she Irish or Welsh? or simply covering trail?).
Emphasis by me.
A London resident for five years with a nice touch of West End's sex, lies (no videotape, sadly).
Three years into Spitalfields, plenty of time for meet and greet.
And her moving to Dorset Street coincides with the launch of the first offensive (February or March1888; easily can be mid-February/towards the end. First hit was Febr. 25, 1888).

Yet another coincidence?

Between a pile of accumulated coincidences and a series of interconnected events fitting the timeline, I heartily choose the latter.

[Sam Flynn]

Guys, we're way off topic. Can we please, please stick to Eddowes and Eddowes alone on this thread?

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks DJA and Lipsky for the replies. Im intrigued by the ideas but one overarching issue I would immediately have is if they are all connected then why are the women killed differently? Just how premeditated do you see these acts? Intentional alternate displays of skill and then lack of it? The venue...planned meetings or haphazard? For me the murders of at least Polly and Annie are the 2 most likely women to have any connection by killer, because they match in every significant category that any serial profiler would cite, and they had, for me, a few of the most relevant categories in common. Deep double throat cuts, abdominal mutilation, and most importantly...they were both soliciting when they met their killer. Hence, we have 2 women killed by the same stranger posing as a client.

Liz Stride was simply killed, no deep ulterior motives are evident,..Kate was killed and part of the act including sending a message to others, and Mary was killed by someone who she let in her room in the middle of the night while she is hungover and partially dressed. There are very mundane possible reasons for some of these murders, I don't buy into connecting these by storyline. Evidence is much more compelling.

As for the aliases Sam, sure, you can make the point that the names she chose are not uncommon and even from within her own circle, but let me ask you this....why would she use an alias at all? Why is she "nothing" at Bishopsgate. She has no trouble with the law, she has no need to use fake names that I can see...so,...why does she? Maybe because she didn't want to be traceable. Maybe because she wanted to be under the radar...she would, if my instincts are correct, be dealing with people she wouldn't want to reveal herself to. Its also possible that the reason we have 98% of Mary Jane Kellys name and address in her aliases is because she made up the names based on a real individual and location. Jumble them and you've hidden the truth.

As to Lipsky last post...the thing with Mary Kelly is that we have been unable to verify any story we have for her by Barnett. We cant find anyone named Mary Jane Kelly with the provided back story. We have no idea if that was her real name, or if any details we have of her are accurate. And that Paris consort thing is interesting,...Paris had been the meeting place of terrorists and Double agents for most of the 80's, I believe the fact that Anderson is summoned back from Paris, not Switzerland, meant he was there concerned with some Fenian matters..likely relating to the hearings. Was Mary a consort to either law enforcement or terrorists in Paris...and is that why she came home early...and maybe picked a new name,.. because that experience frightened her? Who knows.

[Michael W Richards]

Kate Eddowes last 24 hours include fake names, including a drunken alias of "nothing", she behaves in a manner inconsistent with the lifestyle patterns that witnesses including Kelly said she regularly followed, and her absence from Kelly went without any formal response from him for 48 hours. Her last 1/2 hour is less clear, but one thing is certain, if she is seen by Lawende at 1:35...she knew that person. People don't just lay their hands on the chests of strangers in the middle of the night. That to me means she is not soliciting....what I believe a tenet for any Ripper victims. Jack killed unsuspecting strangers forced by circumstances out in the street after midnight.

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=Lipsky;n720584]

I don't really understand the question.
Blackmails are rarely up for public rewards via "newspaper announcements".

So which unfortunate prostitute objected to it?

[DJA]

Hi Michael,

I've linked the five a number of times and really prefer not to again,for the time being,especially on the same thread.

Nichols and Eddowes stand out.Both old friends who would have been on good terms with Jack due to his medical expertise.

Strongly suspect the latter also applied to Chapman and Stride.

29 year old Mary Ann Kelly had been a member of Jack's church 20 years prior and held a long time grudge due to abuse as a child.

Nichols got the ball rolling by attempting to extort money out of Jack due to his sexual orientation.

If you really have difficulty finding recent posts,feel free to send a PM.

All the Best,

Dave.

PS. Post # 361.

[Leanne]

Kates aliases are interesting,

WHY? Because she chose to use John Kelly's surname???????

and I agree Lipsky that there are clues within those kinds of choices.

YEAH! Maybe she chose to be known as John's wife!

[Leanne]

Kate Eddowes last 24 hours include fake names, including a drunken alias of "nothing", she behaves in a manner inconsistent with the lifestyle patterns that witnesses including Kelly said she regularly followed,

I thought that you believed John KELLY was a liar! ??????

and her absence from Kelly went without any formal response from him for 48 hours. Her last 1/2 hour is less clear, but one thing is certain, if she is seen by Lawende at 1:35...she knew that person.

THAT'S NOT CERTAIN AT ALL!!!!!!!

People don't just lay their hands on the chests of strangers in the middle of the night.

UNLESS THEY ARE JUST ABOUT TO DO THEM A FAVOR