Kate's Last Half Hour

[Michael W Richards]

If Catherine Eddowes and Elizabeth Stride got together to plan a blackmail and Catherine's meeting with Jack outside of Mitre Square was her first attempt, then how did Jack know that Stride was involved to be able to kill her first?

How did Kate inform Jack that he must meet her at a certain place at a certain time? Was it before she went hopping? Why did she plan it for a morning that she thought she'd be away?

I don't see how or why you included Liz Stride in the equation Leanne, but, I don't necessarily see Kates killer as being the man to that point known as "Jack". I believe its possible that Kate arranged to speak with some people about what she knew, people associated with her eventual killer. Or the one that orders it. They did that, Saturday afternoon, and after buying her a bunch of drinks they discover she knows too much. They arrange to meet at Mitre Square at 1, lets say for arguments sake. Her arrest is unplanned of course, and likely caused some panic among the criminals she endangered with her information, but it was the City, and she would be released that night at some point. They didn't have to wait very long.

I think its possible she was killed by someone who was involved in the Post Office robbery that same night, if for no other reason than we have proof that criminals were in that immediate area carrying out a crime at the very same time as her murder.

[DJA]

The returned three days before her murder, that's on the 27th. If they'd been away at least 35 days, that means they left on around the 22nd of August. Earlier if assume they'd been away for 6 weeks.

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Frederick Wilkinson at the inquest on 8th October said five or six weeks ago,so possibly as late as 28th August.

Inquest was mainly interested in recent events,particularly Saturday night's occupancy of 52 beds in total.

[DJA]

Should have read 4th October and 24th August,at the latest.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think its possible she was killed by someone who was involved in the Post Office robbery that same night, if for no other reason than we have proof that criminals were in that immediate area carrying out a crime at the very same time as her murder.

There's no evidence that the robbery took place on the same night, let alone "at the very same time", as her murder. It could have taken place at any time over the weekend when the post office was closed, from Saturday lunchtime to Monday morning.

[Leanne]

Originally posted by DJA View Post

That tallies with Nichols moving from opposite Kate's sister in Thrawl Street to next door to Kate at Flower and Dean on 24th August before she left for Kent.

Nicholls was removed from the lodging house on Thrawl Street for not being able to pay the 4d cost of a bed. "I'LL SOON GET MY DOSS MONEY. SEE WHAT A JOLLY BONNET I'VE GOT NOW?". She moved to 'The White House' on Flower and Dean Street because it allowed a man and a woman to share the same bed.

[DJA]

John Kelly firstly testified that he thinks she pawned his boots on Saturday morning. The coroner must have known that the ticket said it was Friday so asked:
'Mr. Crawford: Is it not the fact that the pawning took place on the Friday night? - I do not know. It was either Friday night or Saturday morning. I am all muddled up. (The tickets were produced, and were dated the 28th, Friday.)
[Crawford ?] She pawned the boots, did she not? - Yes; and I stood at the door in my bare feet.
[Crawford ?] Seeing the date on the tickets, cannot you recollect when the pawning took place? - I cannot say, I am so muddled up. It was either Friday or Saturday.
The Coroner: Had you been drinking when the pawning took place? - Yes.'

This is right at the end of his testimony,

Given all the dumb lies Kelly told,there is a good chance that Eddowes stole a pair of boots and hocked them without him.

[DJA]

Originally posted by DJA View Post

That tallies with Nichols moving from opposite Kate's sister in Thrawl Street to next door to Kate at Flower and Dean on 24th August before she left for Kent.

Nicholls was removed from the lodging house on Thrawl Street for not being able to pay the 4d cost of a bed. "I'LL SOON GET MY DOSS MONEY. SEE WHAT A JOLLY BONNET I'VE GOT NOW?". She moved to 'The White House' on Flower and Dean Street because it allowed a man and a woman to share the same bed.

Well,I'm certainly not going to dispute logic like that.

[Lipsky]

Given all the dumb lies Kelly told,there is a good chance that Eddowes stole a pair of boots and hocked them without him.

That John Kelly was so full of BS it's bewildering.

Concerning an earlier "spooky significance" comment by Sam: dear Sam, serial killer cases have been cracked by "spooky" pattern recognition. On the other hand, failure to do so has been by ignoring or not comprehending the significance of such "minor" (??) leads and even more the significance that serial killers place on symbolism. It is impossible to comprehend the first hit (Stride) that is next to Jewish Site #1 by deeming the second murder as "unplanned -- a hasty decision because the first was interrupted" wheras its occurrence to Jewish site #2 renders the whole thing designated beforehand as "one" operation. Or was the "Graffiti" too another coincidence?

If the second hit is not random , in terms of location, the question remains if it was random in terms of the victim chosen.

1. Would our man wait for any random prostitute to sit by the second Jewish site?
2. Would our man lead a pre-chosen victim to this location to ensure the operation includes murder on both jewish sites? (with convenient "sightings" by Jews in both cases, followed by an antisemite graffiti?)

If we choose to accept 2, then the question becomes:
1. Was the chosen victim a random prostitute at some pub?
2. Was it a deliberately chosen individual?

Kate's geo-specifics, the physical interaction with the other victim(s) and her twice given alias-es (I'll comply) suggest that it was deliberate, and her last half hour correlates to that. That is why the aliases discussion is part and parcel of this thread, methinks.

[Leanne]

Well,I'm certainly not going to dispute logic like that.

You can't because I learnt it by reading her inquest!

[jerryd]

Kate was in Thrawl Street, visiting her ill sister Eliza Gold/Frost, 4 to 5 weeks before the inquest. Annie Phillips (Kates daughter) was in Thrawl Street asking Eliza Gold if she (Eliza) had seen her mother, a few days before Kates murder.

Annie stated at the inquest she was avoiding her mother for asking for money. Why was she out actively looking for her then?

[jerryd]

All within 11 doors of each other on the same side of the street and if we go with the 10th November telegraph report you can drop Eddowes in at the shed .
Sharing the same tiny pubs ,the same shop etc .

Believing these women didn't know each other is as daft as it gets

If the papers are to be believed.


Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

[Sam Flynn]

Can we just stick to Eddowes' last movements on this Eddowes thread, please? There are other threads that address the much bigger, and very different, topic of whether the victims knew each other.

[DJA]

Can we just stick to Eddowes' last movements on this Eddowes thread, please? There are other threads that address the much bigger, and very different, topic of whether the victims knew each other.

Eddowes' last 30 minutes would make a very,very short thread as no one knows where she was.

Personally,reckon she was having a cup of tea with Jack at 6 Mitre Street.

She had no idea Stride was dead and was probably seeking her share of the blackmail money.

Your nose is out of joint because your long held position on these five women not knowing each other is being trashed by the facts.

You have a history of dragging threads out of context.

Kettle,pot.

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n720340]

I don't see how or why you included Liz Stride in the equation Leanne,[//QUOTE]
DJA thinks that a Eddowes and Stride planned to blackmail the Ripper. The offer of a reward for INFORMATION appeared in the Morning Adveritiser on the 21st of September, (while Kate and John were away hopping).

[DJA]

And on the 27th they were back in London, purportedly seeking the reward.

By 2am Sunday 30th September both Eddowes and Stride were dead,having been murdered about an hour apart.

An hour earlier Eddowes' had given her jailer the real name of the last victim along with the address immediately behind Strides' current lodging house.
Stride was at 32 Flower and Dean,Eddowes at 55.
The first victim had lived at 56,her last address.

Apology for the repeat as it gets too sound a bit "fishy"