Kate's Last Half Hour

[Michael W Richards]

I thought that you believed John KELLY was a liar! ??????

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THAT'S NOT CERTAIN AT ALL!!!!!!!

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UNLESS THEY ARE JUST ABOUT TO DO THEM A FAVOR

1. I do, but Kelly is not the only source for information about their relationship.
2. The meaning of the hand on my chest, as I indicated, suggests familiarity.
3. Now you have Kate doing favors for people at 1:30am, first she wants to sell ripped dirty aprons, now you say she is doing favors? Best you not reply to my posts if this is the best Ill get.

[Michael W Richards]

WHY? Because she chose to use John Kelly's surname???????


YEAH! Maybe she chose to be known as John's wife!

Last time Ill respond to your argumentative rebuttal....she chose to use 2 names and addresses, contained within are 98% of the full name and address of Mary Jane Kelly. Using "Kelly" isn't the issue obviously. Some people are content with that, so be it. Considering that the very next alleged Ripper victim is Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset Street, and within Kates 2 aliases is Mary Jane Kelly _6 Dorset Street, the "coincidence" seems unlikely to me.

John said they lived "as man and wife", and that they were "partners". I think that explains the nature of their deal, and why Kate would have no need to use his name. Maybe she did, maybe she used Kelly because many people had that surname, or maybe she used an address and name of someone she knew, and disguised it a bit to prevent anyone from going after Mary. It might have been to leave a bread crumb trail too.

[Michael W Richards]

Guys, we're way off topic. Can we please, please stick to Eddowes and Eddowes alone on this thread?

I am trying Sam..but some posters are Trying.

[Lipsky]

I thought that you believed John KELLY was a liar! ??????

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THAT'S NOT CERTAIN AT ALL!!!!!!!

[LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]
UNLESS THEY ARE JUST ABOUT TO DO THEM A FAVOR

Good afternoon, Leanne.

Am I to understand that you object that Lawende saw Eddowes and her assassin at appox. 1.30-1.35, sheer minutes before the murder down the passage and into the square?

Doing a "favor" (nicely put!) would take no more than a few exchanges, lasting hardly a minute, and certainly not in that spot, where they could be located.
Prices were "fixed" and no real negotiations would be needed if this was a simple, random, "hungry" client out for a "favor".

Doesnt this look like a conversation, conveniently lasting so long as to be witnessed by the coming men (whom our assailant, who had eye to eye contact) could see from their approach?

Eddowes had her back on them, hence the recognition via clothing.
And she was probably not in a frame of mind/clarity to patronage the duration of the "conversation". Our man had the upper hand.

After the men passed on, and probably under pretext of their appearance, our man led Eddowes down the passage and on the square, and tragedy ensued.

The inquest suggested 7-8 minutes for the whole murder/mutilation, the operation after the sighting probably was a contained, disciplined 10-minutes op.
Our man vanished via Mitre Street without being witnessed (and chased).

Reckon he fled at 1:43 at latest, body discover was at 1:45 ("approx") by PC Watkins.

The time window of sighting-murder-body discovery is so tight that it demands perfect sync, undistracted action and orchestration precision of what would be called today "a professional hit".

A man that can do this in 10 mins tops, can easily exploit half an hour (if it is true the killer fled the Stride scene due to the pony cart arriving at 1:00 am) to trace down Eddowes and lead her on to her own murder.

[Lipsky]

1. I do, but Kelly is not the only source for information about their relationship.
2. The meaning of the hand on my chest, as I indicated, suggests familiarity.
3. Now you have Kate doing favors for people at 1:30am, first she wants to sell ripped dirty aprons, now you say she is doing favors? Best you not reply to my posts if this is the best Ill get.

Emphasis by me on keyword of that interaction.
And that might explain why she let, contrary to "client/prostitute rules of engagement" the talk go on a tad, just long to be seen by Lawende and co. (whom she couldnt have seen coming, anyway, contrary to her assassin), before being led on down Church passage, unaware of the impending tragedy.

[Michael W Richards]

Emphasis by me on keyword of that interaction.
And that might explain why she let, contrary to "client/prostitute rules of engagement" the talk go on a tad, just long to be seen by Lawende and co. (whom she couldnt have seen coming, anyway, contrary to her assassin), before being led on down Church passage, unaware of the impending tragedy.

Scenario...Kate has a meeting she thinks she might have missed while in jail, she heads out as soon as she is released looking for the man in the red scarf near Mitre Square, she looks down the passages, in the square, and as she goes out the carriageway entrance to the square she sees him. She goes up to him smiling, puts her hand on his chest and says' Thank you so much for waiting, I thought I missed you." Fictional, at this point.. sure, but improbable? No.

I should add that I doubt the veracity of that sighting anyway.

[DJA]

Guys, we're way off topic. Can we please, please stick to Eddowes and Eddowes alone on this thread?

Doubt Eddowes was alone,'coz someone killed her

[Michael W Richards]

Doubt Eddowes was alone,'coz someone killed her

Ah...but was her killer just one man?

[Debra A]

Despite the fact that Mary was an extremely popular first name, that Ann(e) or Jane were the most popular second names in those days, and that John Kelly's most recent partner (whom Eddowes knew) was named Mary Ann Kelly...

Sam, you were perhaps absent from the boards at the time but research I did on Mary Anne Kelly, proposed by Mark King to be Kelly's first partner, who died in 1888 at Flower and Dean Street showed she was actually the widow of William Kelley. The full research is here for anyone interested:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17286

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Debs. I wasn't too active on the boards at that time, as you rightly discern.

[Lipsky]

Scenario...Kate has a meeting she thinks she might have missed while in jail, she heads out as soon as she is released looking for the man in the red scarf near Mitre Square, she looks down the passages, in the square, and as she goes out the carriageway entrance to the square she sees him. She goes up to him smiling, puts her hand on his chest and says' Thank you so much for waiting, I thought I missed you." Fictional, at this point.. sure, but improbable? No.

I should add that I doubt the veracity of that sighting anyway.

00:45 --> Schwarz sighting of Stride and perpetrator (guest appearance: the pipeman cross the street). Cry of Lipsky
01:00 --> the pony cart enters the alley. In my opinion, the killer has departed around 00:50. He wasnt interrupted. Wants to ensure second hit. By the time the cart driver fetches help from the workers club, our man has reached the meeting point for the second murder.
Around same time, Eddowes is released.
From the Casebook index on Eddowes:

"She leaves the station at 1:00 AM.
[..]
She turned left out the doorway which took her in the opposite direction of what would have been the fastest way back to Flower and Dean Street. She appears to be heading back toward Aldgate High Street where she had become drunk. On going down Houndsditch she would have passed the entrance to Duke Street, at the end of which was Church Passage which led into Mitre Square.

It is estimated that it would have taken less than ten minutes to reach Mitre Square. This leaves a thirty minute gap from the time she leaves the police station to the time she is seen outside of Mitre Square."

I don't think the meeting point would be where Lawende's sighting was. That would suggest our man is loitering in a soon-to-be crime scene where he can produce many witnesses including bobbies on the beat. He wouldnt also risk the same place he probably got Eddowes drunk. That would also produce witnesses. Maybe another fixed point, but more secluded. Notice how NOONE can account for that last half hour? MJK was seen "here" and "there", but the victims of the double event produce convenient, devised, sightings mere minutes before their murders. If Eddowes could be in Mitre Square in ten minutes, the half hour gap is a mystery. And it cannot be neither loitering of the killer "solo", nor in her company.

Assumption: ten minutes to meeting point, a fixed, secluded location close to Mitre Sq (within walking distance), discussion with killer (probably introduced himself earlier on as someone interested to provide info on the blackmailing scheme, and probably led on the discussion by allowing for some true info on his employer, yet another decoy), short walk to Church passage, standing for a couple of minutes, sighting by Jews occurs, (standing interval 1:30-1:35, our man has calculated 15 minutes window --> 1:30-1:45 as the maximum period of decoy and murder), and the attack is launched. By 1:45 the man is out of the square.

Killer flees, washes blood, provides graffiti in convoluted syntax and disappears in safehouse placing kidney in ethanol. The Double event obviously taken its toll, he skips a phase of the lunar pattern and strikes again when the next lunar pattern emerges on Nov. 8 (wee hours of Nov.9).

[Leanne]

Good afternoon, Leanne.

Am I to understand that you object that Lawende saw Eddowes and her assassin at appox. 1.30-1.35, sheer minutes before the murder down the passage and into the square?

Doing a "favor" (nicely put!) would take no more than a few exchanges, lasting hardly a minute, and certainly not in that spot, where they could be located.

That's why they moved into the square. It was just a warm-friendly gesture...a promise of things to come.

Prices were "fixed" and no real negotiations would be needed if this was a simple, random, "hungry" client out for a "favor". n

IT WASN'T A NEGOTIATION!

Doesnt this look like a conversation, conveniently lasting so long as to be witnessed by the coming men (whom our assailant, who had eye to eye contact) could see from their approach?

How short do you think the exchange should have been?

Eddowes had her back on them, hence the recognition via clothing.
And she was probably not in a frame of mind/clarity to patronage the duration of the "conversation". Our man had the upper hand.

After the men passed on, and probably under pretext of their appearance, our man led Eddowes down the passage and on the square, and tragedy ensued.

The inquest suggested 7-8 minutes for the whole murder/mutilation, the operation after the sighting probably was a contained, disciplined 10-minutes op.
Our man vanished via Mitre Street without being witnessed (and chased).

Reckon he fled at 1:43 at latest, body discover was at 1:45 ("approx") by PC Watkins.

The time window of sighting-murder-body discovery is so tight that it demands perfect sync, undistracted action and orchestration precision of what would be called today "a professional hit".

A man that can do this in 10 mins tops, can easily exploit half an hour (if it is true the killer fled the Stride scene due to the pony cart arriving at 1:00 am) to trace down Eddowes and lead her on to her own murder.

'TRACE DOWN EDDOWES"?
Do you mean the Eddowes who was away hopping when the reward for INFORMATION was reported?
Do you mean the Eddowes who could not possibly have met with Stride between the announcement and the alleged meeting, and had no time to inform Jack that he was wanted "for a discussion"?
OR
Do you mean the 'Eddowes' who told Jack the name of the person who she teamed up with for this 'friendly discussion' and where and when to find her so he could silence her first.

STOP WRITING FICTION!

[Leanne]

Scenario...Kate has a meeting she thinks she might have missed while in jail,

HOW AND WHEN WAS THIS MEETING AGREED ON?
before she went hopping or when she got back?

Did she say "Jack, I have to meet with you as soon as I get back for a 'Friendly exchange'. And by the way, Elizabeth Stride (who will be at Dutsfield Yard on the night we meet), want's a friendly discussion too. Jack had to know the name of the other pro involved for him to be able to kill her first!

she heads out as soon as she is released looking for the man in the red scarf near Mitre Square,

Did she tell the man she arranged to meet with to wear a red scarf, so she could recognize him? THIS THEORY GETS SILLIER EVERY TIME YOU POST.

she looks down the passages, in the square, and as she goes out the carriageway entrance to the square she sees him. She goes up to him smiling, puts her hand on his chest and says':

"thanks for wearing the red scarf. I would not have recognised you otherwise, amongst all of these people!"

IMPROBABLE?...….YES!

[Leanne]

Last time Ill respond to your argumentative rebuttal....she chose to use 2 names and addresses, contained within are 98% of the full name and address of Mary Jane Kelly.

Mary ANN Kelly of 6 Dorset Street
is 98% of Mary JANE Kelly of Room 13 26 Dorset Street????????? - GO BACK TO SCHOOL!

Mary ANN Mary ANN Mary ANN !

[Leanne]

Alderley and Wilmslow Advertiser - 12 ... - Casebook: Jack the Ripper

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/alderley.../881012.html

These, she said, were Mary Ann Kelly, of 6, Fashion-street. On leaving the station she was seen by the gaoler to turn towards Houndsditch, which would lead her …

Daily News - 12 October 1888 - Casebook: Jack the Ripper

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily.../18881012.html

I took her to the office, where, after giving the name of Mary Ann Kelly, she was discharged by the station sergeant. I pushed open the swing door leading to the …

Star - 11 October 1888 - Casebook: Jack the Ripper

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881011.html

She was then discharged after giving her name and address as Mary Ann Kelly, 6, Fashion-street, Spitalfields. Before going she said, in answer to witness's ...

Irish Times - 3 October 1888 - Casebook: Jack the Ripper

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/irish.../18881003.html

Mary Ann Nichols: Polly's Wounds: What were they like? ..... One of the pawn tickets found near the body was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street. Up to the ...