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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Im not sure whether you meant the above to read as it does, but if you did, the kill and all the mutilations...colon cutting, face cutting, apron cutting, excising organs, ...yada yada...took what, 5 minutes?
    DR. FREDERICK GORDON BROWN:
    [Coroner] How long would it take to make the wounds? - It might be done in five minutes. It might take him longer; but that is the least time it could be done in.

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    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
      Or do you think he was still there when Harvey did or didn't look in?
      I believe he was hiding in the warehouse. He would have been a fool to run away with police whistles blowing and everyone running into Mitre Square.

      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
      And I see that you think Kate knew him but hadn't planned to see him there? She just bumps into someone she knows at 1:30am in the square mile-ish that is the City of London?
      You're reading too much into hand-on-shoulder thing. She may not have known him and IF she did YES she could have just bumped into him.

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      • Originally posted by Leanne View Post

        What Irishman are we talking about?
        The hypothetical Fennian that Michael Richards thinks killed Eddowes. Could also apply to the hypothetical Fennian that Lynn Cates thinks killed Mary Kelly.

        I don't know how long Richards thinks the killer was with Eddowes's corpse in Mitre Square, but it's hard to imagine there was more than 10-15 minutes, with plenty of possible witnesses and interrupters around. Whoever killed Eddowes displayed the stealth and quick work that to me is a hallmark of Ripper killings. It seems simpler to me that this was the Ripper at work, rather than a Fennian who happened to be blessed with the same murder talent as the Ripper.
        Last edited by Damaso Marte; 08-07-2019, 03:12 PM.

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        • How often does someone encounter a person they know or planned to meet and puts their hand on their shoulder?

          "What are you doing here so early?"
          "I am desperate to find work."
          "Oh, there there sweetie, I'll sooth you. But first we have to wait until the policeman passes. Then we'll have about 14 minutes until he comes back"
          Last edited by Leanne; 08-07-2019, 10:03 PM.

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          • Not all of the inquest reports are the same. Here's the fullest testimony of Police constable Edward Watkin, that I've read:

            EDWARD WATKIN: No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning.

            [Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.
            [Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
            [Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
            [Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.
            [Coroner] Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No. I next came into Mitre-square at 1.44, when I discovered the body lying on the right as I entered the square. The woman was on her back, with her feet towards the square. Her clothes were thrown up. I saw her throat was cut and the stomach ripped open. She was lying in a pool of blood. I did not touch the body. I ran across to Kearley and Long's warehouse. The door was ajar, and I pushed it open, and called on the watchman Morris, who was inside. He came out. I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. Holland was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and also Dr. Brown, surgeon to the police force.
            [Coroner] When you first saw the body did you hear any footsteps as if anybody were running away? - No. The door of the warehouse to which I went was ajar, because the watchman was working about. It was no unusual thing for the door to be ajar at that hour of the morning.
            By Mr. Crawford: I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.
            By the Coroner: I did not sound an alarm. We do not carry whistles.
            By a Juror: My beat is not a double but a single beat. No other policeman comes into Mitre-street.

            From 10pm to 1am Mitre Square was empty, then when he's finished a round and was back in Mitre Square at 1:44 he found the body.

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            • Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post

              The hypothetical Fennian that Michael Richards thinks killed Eddowes. Could also apply to the hypothetical Fennian that Lynn Cates thinks killed Mary Kelly.

              I don't know how long Richards thinks the killer was with Eddowes's corpse in Mitre Square, but it's hard to imagine there was more than 10-15 minutes , with plenty of possible witnesses and interrupters around.
              That's why I favor him running to the nearest warehouse door, which was not locked. He probably hid behind the nearest boxes, then escaped to the basement when the watchman went out with Watkins. Neither of them would have expected the killer to be so close to the scene. He would have been very familiar with the floorplan if he was often at St. James market and the warehouse was also a sales room open to buyers. That's where he was when everyone was looking for him before the Goulston Street Graffitti was discovered.



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              • Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post

                The hypothetical Fennian that Michael Richards thinks killed Eddowes. Could also apply to the hypothetical Fennian that Lynn Cates thinks killed Mary Kelly.

                I don't know how long Richards thinks the killer was with Eddowes's corpse in Mitre Square, but it's hard to imagine there was more than 10-15 minutes, with plenty of possible witnesses and interrupters around. Whoever killed Eddowes displayed the stealth and quick work that to me is a hallmark of Ripper killings. It seems simpler to me that this was the Ripper at work, rather than a Fennian who happened to be blessed with the same murder talent as the Ripper.
                Its Mike by the way, not "Richards", and I think the kill took as long as it needed to and the killer hightailed it quickly thereafter. What I have suggested is that Lawende didn't see Kate, which means the killer had from Watkins prior pass to his arrival at 1:44 to do his work. Which makes the volume of things done in the dark in that square something that was accomplished in 10-15 minutes vs 5. I like to use the probable vs the possible.

                Just thought that Id add, I never said a Fenian killed her, I suggested the person she suspected came from Irish Self rule factions or from street criminal factions. Also, it was suggested by a Senior Contemporary Investigator that the crimes may have been linked to a Fenian, Millen, and that they were in the process of plotting a political assassination at the time....hence, the need to silence any "snitches".
                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-08-2019, 04:10 PM.
                Michael Richards

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                • Every day people conspired to keep activities and plans secretive in that area, Fenians, Socialists, Anarchists, ...why people cant consider conspiring to keep Capital Punishment style crimes secretive is beyond me. The authorities did so routinely.
                  Michael Richards

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                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                    Its Mike by the way, not "Richards", and I think the kill took as long as it needed to and the killer hightailed it quickly thereafter.
                    Where did he hightail it to? To the nearest open door which would have put him out of sight in seconds, or to one of the passages where he could have bumped into anyone? (like the other couple Lawende saw).

                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    What I have suggested is that Lawende didn't see Kate, which means the killer had from Watkins prior pass to his arrival at 1:44 to do his work.
                    THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE THE COUPLE LAWENDE SAW WAS KATE AND JACK!
                    They were seen at 1:35 and no one saw where they went. They could have met at 1:30, waited for Watkins to finished checking the Mitre Square and then moved into it as soon as he left back into Mitre Street. WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?????????

                    And the killer was gone at 1:44. He wasn't seen fleeing, so Watkins didn't interrupt him. He knew he had to be out of there 14 minutes later. That's 2 minutes to get her in that corner, 2 minutes to slice her throat and face, 5 minutes to rip her body and grab an organ, 3 minutes to find and slice the apron and 2 minutes to flee to the nearest unlocked door. WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?

                    And which senior contemporary investigator are we talking about?


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                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      Its Mike by the way, not "Richards", and I think the kill took as long as it needed to and the killer hightailed it quickly thereafter. What I have suggested is that Lawende didn't see Kate, which means the killer had from Watkins prior pass to his arrival at 1:44 to do his work.
                      So where was she and her killer at 1:30 when Watkin entered? There were only two other entries because Watkin entered and exited via Mitre Street, and there was nowhere to hide within the Square, (except the open warehouse door), and the nightwatchman was so observant!


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                      • First off Leanne, I think your math on the time between Lawendes sighting and the discovery of the body needs revisiting, ...its 8 minutes, not 14. Macnaughten suggested the linkage with the killer and the Fenian based Balfour plot, although many believe that was in connection with Tumblety. Who, by all accounts, may well have some role of funding in that plot. the square had a few vacant warehouses, she could have met her killer in one of those them moved to the murder location after Watkins pass. Lest we not forget that on that same weekend a Robbery of the Aldgate Post Office was taking place, which means we can put men who at the every least committed robberies in the location at around the same time.....

                        Paul Mall Gazette, Oct 1st..."
                        ROBBERY AT A LONDON POST-OFFICE

                        Between the hours of midnight last night and eight o'clock this morning the Aldgate post-office, situated at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, was entered by thieves. It is supposed that the entrance was gained by the skylight. On reaching the second floor, which is occupied by the boy telegraph messengers, about £3, the wages of the lads, was taken, and their uniforms and other things about the room were scattered in all directions. Descending the staircase to the basement floor, all the postal orders and forms were disturbed, and some torn into shreds, while tills were forced open and about £50 I gold and silver extracted. The safe, however, which contained nearly £400 in gold, was left untouched.
                        "

                        Back to the timing...some people are ok with the notion that to get from the spot Lawende thinks he see her with Sailor Man...(they are not seen moving off yet as Lawende passes), get Kate inside the square, attack and kill her, open her abdomen, remove her intestines, cut out a section of colon, and a kidney and partial uterus, and then cut her face, cut and tear the apron, and leave the square before being seen by Harvey..(if he looked in at all), and Watkins, at 1:44. If the witnesses got their times about right, that's 8 minutes for all the above to take place. Yes, it appears there could be enough time if there is no lingering, no pauses, no waiting for the right moment to grab her, no hesitation, no indecision, no noise which might cause a brief pause, no sloppiness by the killer. Well, I do see sloppiness by the killer, the colon section and perhaps collateral chevrons when he may have intended to cut only the nose, a partial uterus...if this man wanted what Annies killer did, cutting and tearing some cloth in what would be an echo chamber, tracing around a navel...this guy was not a pro.
                        Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-09-2019, 09:50 AM.
                        Michael Richards

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                        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                          First off Leanne, I think your math on the time between Lawendes sighting and the discovery of the body needs revisiting, ...its 8 minutes, not 14.
                          I got the 14 minutes from the 14 minutes Watkin told the inquest that it took him to complete his beat. Every time. No matter which direction he was walking. And that's what someone familiar with the location would know. 1:44 minus 1:30 equals 14.

                          And stop saying "sailor man". Lawende said he was wearing a cap, not a hat, which is what costermonger mongers wore so they could carry boxes on their head if they had to.
                          Last edited by Leanne; 08-09-2019, 11:26 AM.

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                          • Answer the question WHERE WAS THE REAL KATE AND JACK?

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                              billingsgate fish market
                              Last edited by Leanne; 08-09-2019, 12:39 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                                I got the 14 minutes from the 14 minutes Watkin told the inquest that it took him to complete his beat. Every time. No matter which direction he was walking. And that's what someone familiar with the location would know. 1:44 minus 1:30 equals 14.

                                And stop saying "sailor man". Lawende said he was wearing a cap, not a hat, which is what costermonger mongers wore so they could carry boxes on their head if they had to.
                                The Lawende sighting is at 1:35, Watkins finds the body at 1:44....if that's 14 minutes to you than you have bigger issues than basic comprehension. Since you keep standing by Lawendes sighting I would think you could do a better job of the math. Swanson said he had the "appearance of a sailor" in his report, so take your labelling complaints up with it. And.....Ive mentioned many times that there were empty warehouses in Mitre Square. If you are looking for me to name a specific one, sorry.

                                Ive put up with suggestions from you that Kate was trying to sell her torn and likely dirty apron at 1:30am... which is laughably, and totally, ridiculous...and that 1:35am to 1:44am is actually 14 minutes not 8, but your insistence in using caps like your yelling at someone is bulls****. get your facts right, check your math, and get off the pedestal you've put yourself on.
                                Michael Richards

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