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  • Originally posted by DJA View Post



    Inquest: Mary Jane Kelly
    Monday, November 12, 1888
    (The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, November 13, 1888)
    Yesterday [12 Nov], at the Shoreditch Town Hall, Dr. Macdonald, M.P., the coroner for the North- Eastern District of Middlesex, opened his inquiry relative to the death of Marie Jeanette Kelly, the woman whose body was discovered on Friday morning, terribly mutilated, in a room on the ground floor of 26, Dorset-street, entrance to which was by a side door in Miller's-court.


    Sam,

    It was the parlor or games room of the house.
    If some one was sent to the rear of the house,that is where they would have found themself.
    The room, number 13, was the partitioned off back room of 26 Dorset Street, then being used for storage; their landlord, John McCarthy ran a chandler’s shop as well as owning numerous properties on Dorset Street, and lived at number 27 himself with his wife and son.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
      Hello Leanne,

      I hope you picked up the sarcasm when I asked what could possibly go wrong.

      If she went to the police it wouldn't have necessarily been for a reward per se. They had money on hand for informers did they not?

      c.d.
      They had money on hand for informers?????? They had money that everyone would have tried to collect, leading to many false leads and a lot of useless work?
      ….No wonder they failed to stop him!

      If she had exclusive, damaging information, she would have had to wait until after the arrest and conviction of the killer to get it.
      And with another woman who shared this information being 'silenced', that would have made her information more believable.

      Last edited by Leanne; 09-03-2019, 11:37 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        A prostitute attempting to blackmail a serial killer of prostitutes who cuts their throats and rips out their internal organs. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

        Why not go to the police with her evidence if she really had anything more than just a hunch? Surely if she could have convinced them that her information was correct she could have gotten some money in return for what she had to tell them. Maybe not as much as blackmailing a killer but certainly a lot safer.

        c.d.
        Only real life can offer such blend of bad choices which in a Guy Ritchie flick would be darkly/weirdly comical, but in our case led to horrible tragedy.

        It's a classic tale: Desperate plans for desperate people! These women were severely poor, and hope was nowhere in sight, way past down the age lane for any prospect of clientelle -- and Whitechapel wasnt exactly serving "top notch" material to begin with.

        The killer probably presented himself as a local who could help with the scam with inside info and/or a game plan. He looked the part, he had knowledge of the area and the people and the "protocol" so he appeared legit. To gain their trust, he would have to suit that profile. No West-ender gone slum-hopping, no "gold chain" and striking black bags etc.

        On the other hand, if the victim of blackmail was a socialite/West Ender/Cleveland street "upper" , he could hardly - in the minds of these blackmailers - be associated with our local chap. These were worlds apart, intersected at some point by some hardcore sex scandal, probably featuring MJK as a stellar witness (from her tenure at the classy but whacky West End brothel probably). So our man was never suspected to be anything else than a local who could provide info and possibly muscles.

        Add the reward for the murderer to the blackmail scam, and greed/desperation with despair and bad choices/too much alcohol makes for some real bad decisions.
        Our man got Eddowes hammered early on Saturday afternoon, and set up a meeting for after midnight. Probably claimed he could provide Eddowes with info on the target of blackmail whom he may have pointed out to be the killer (would make sense , right? he was blackmailed ergo he killed).

        Eddowes agreed, unaware of the first murder committed minutes before she was released from custody, and walked on straight to her murder.

        No blackmailer ever goes to the police. That's the whole point of blackmail - usually pulled off by poor desperate characters against "socialites with a vice or two" -- people thrown in situations way over their heads -- tragedy ensues. Probably blackmail scheme aimed at much more than reward money. Eddowes was in custody until 45 minutes before she was found murdered. If she felt she was in danger or needed police help, she would have stayed right there.

        But she kept a tight lid, and so did that lousy "boyfriend" of hers even after murder, at the inquest, feigning amnesia.

        Comment


        • Hello Leanne,

          Are you saying that it is more likely that the police simply assumed that the good citizens of Whitechapel would do their civic duty and give information to the police with no incentive needed?

          Obviously any money they would have paid out would have been for solid information. I think that should be obvious.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            Hello Leanne,

            Are you saying that it is more likely that the police simply assumed that the good citizens of Whitechapel would do their civic duty and give information to the police with no incentive needed?

            Obviously any money they would have paid out would have been for solid information. I think that should be obvious.

            c.d.
            Why do you say such a thing, c.d.? The good folk of Whitechapel needed no other incentive than fulfilling their civic duty without any further demands other than peace, justice and a sense of moral responsibility. Dorset street has been misunderstood, it was a cradle of generosity and coming together. Family picnics and all.

            Add to that , that some of the "fine characters" that made up the "Vigilante committee" made sure they received money instead of handing it out.
            Mishter Lusk was a business man, just like our kind, generous landlord McCarthy, who claimed to have received a letter (?) from MJK's mother.

            (so, he also ran the "post office" for Miller's court? did he pick the mail for all his tenants?)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
              The room, number 13, was the partitioned off back room of 26 Dorset Street, then being used for storage; their landlord, John McCarthy ran a chandler’s shop as well as owning numerous properties on Dorset Street, and lived at number 27 himself with his wife and son.
              In fact,the parlor door was nailed shut on the passage side of the house.
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                In fact,the parlor door was nailed shut on the passage side of the house.
                So would any mail of hers be addressed to 26 Dorset Street?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                  Hello Leanne,

                  Are you saying that it is more likely that the police simply assumed that the good citizens of Whitechapel would do their civic duty and give information to the police with no incentive needed?

                  Obviously any money they would have paid out would have been for solid information. I think that should be obvious.

                  c.d.
                  Just to clear up a few points monies paid to informers are usually paid to informants based on results, there are a few exceptions one being to facilitate the gathering of further information.

                  If this killer was not local, but simply came into the district to kill and then left then there was never any likelihood that there would be any specific information to identify him. If the killer had been a local then I suspect Whitechapel would have given him up.

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 09-04-2019, 07:26 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Hi Leanne,

                    Yep.

                    It would be like where I reside.
                    My mail is picked up from the Local Post Office. Her's at McCarthy's front shop.
                    Probably sorted by name.

                    Genuinely wonder at times if Mary Kelly had Multiple Personality Disorder,hence Mary Ann Kelly and/or Mary Jane Kelly.
                    Last edited by DJA; 09-04-2019, 07:33 AM.
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                      Hello Leanne,

                      Are you saying that it is more likely that the police simply assumed that the good citizens of Whitechapel would do their civic duty and give information to the police with no incentive needed?

                      Obviously any money they would have paid out would have been for solid information. I think that should be obvious.
                      c.d.
                      No, I am saying that the offer of rewards from the police was a discontinued practice:
                      FOURTH EDITION.
                      THE WHITECHAPEL MURDER.

                      The Home Secretary in his letter had said that the practice of offering rewards for the discovery of criminals was discontinued some years ago, and that there is nothing in the circumstances of the Whitechapel murders to justify a departure from the rule.



                      The public wanted a reward to be offered and so contributions built up from private individuals. Many offered reward money AFTER THE DOUBLE EVENT.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        It would be like where I reside.
                        My mail is picked up from the Local Post Office. Her's at McCarthy's front shop.
                        Probably sorted by name.
                        Is there any actual evidence for that happening? Or is this just an assumption because McCarthy knew she received letters from her mother?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                          Is there any actual evidence for that happening? Or is this just an assumption because McCarthy knew she received letters from her mother?
                          McCarthy claimed, after the murder, to have received a letter from MJK's mother. Her parents, assumed to be alive at the time, never showed up at the funeral. even though it took place more than one week after the murder. John Malcolm once noted the interesting fact of the proximity of MJK and MacCarthy's graves.

                          The aforementioned notion that "if this was a local , Whitechapel would have given up on him" is dubious.
                          Lusk committe's sought money, and it was the only party that the perpetrator enganged in direct taunting (Lusk letter).
                          Another reason to believe the man was in close proximity of those ruffians and probably knew of their own motives for "helping out".

                          Bottomline: none helped those poor women, before, during, or after the executions.

                          Eddowes and co took matters in their own hands, and reference to MJK via aliases points to a source of information for anyone interested to pick up on.
                          Sadly, only the killer did, because he knew beforehand who the "Stellar witness" was.


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                            Hello Leanne,

                            I hope you picked up the sarcasm when I asked what could possibly go wrong.

                            If she went to the police it wouldn't have necessarily been for a reward per se. They had money on hand for informers did they not?

                            c.d.
                            A pittance compared with what extortion could offer. So you have the context correctly, at that same place and time a double agent, one who had a history of involvement in anti government terrorist plots, was paid 5000L to testify at the hearings. By my reckoning, approximately, that's close to 3/4 million L today. There was money floating around, more that a few quid as a informant or with a reward of 100L. I mentioned desperation in my previous post, that's a flag here...for a motive for her trying this at all. John has no boots for god sakes, Im sure they knew that this needs fixing... like, today. As for the trail of victims to that point, there had not even been 2 disemboweling yet, just 1, this was not yet a full blown monster. The legend became one in room 13.
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lipsky View Post
                              McCarthy claimed, after the murder, to have received a letter from MJK's mother. Her parents, assumed to be alive at the time, never showed up at the funeral. even though it took place more than one week after the murder.
                              Could you point me in the direction of this claim please. I may have missed it, but all I can find is this by McCarthy, carried by several papers on the 10 Nov;

                              "Her mother lives in Ireland, but in what county I do not know. Deceased used to receive letters from her occasionally. "

                              There's also the claim from a city missionary, in the Evening News 12 Nov, who said;

                              "We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother, It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there."



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lipsky View Post

                                McCarthy claimed, after the murder, to have received a letter from MJK's mother. Her parents, assumed to be alive at the time, never showed up at the funeral. even though it took place more than one week after the murder. John Malcolm once noted the interesting fact of the proximity of MJK and MacCarthy's graves.

                                The aforementioned notion that "if this was a local , Whitechapel would have given up on him" is dubious.
                                Lusk committe's sought money, and it was the only party that the perpetrator enganged in direct taunting (Lusk letter).
                                Another reason to believe the man was in close proximity of those ruffians and probably knew of their own motives for "helping out".

                                Bottomline: none helped those poor women, before, during, or after the executions.

                                Eddowes and co took matters in their own hands, and reference to MJK via aliases points to a source of information for anyone interested to pick up on.
                                Sadly, only the killer did, because he knew beforehand who the "Stellar witness" was.

                                Didnt McCarthy pay fro her funeral ?

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                                Comment

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