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She gave the name of MARY ANN KELLY of 6 Fashion Street to be released from the police station and JANE KELLY of 6 Dorset Street when she pawned the boots.
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"was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street" What an interesting absence of Mary ANN ("Mary ANN Mary ANN" lol).Originally posted by Leanne View Post
Leanne I am sorry but your posts are confusing me. No need for the CAPS LOCK excess either.
We are discussing the possible timeline of that missing half hour, not the hopping of previous weeks.
At 1:30 am it is improbable that , straight out of temp prison time and a massive hangover, she would be soliciting either a stranger in the middle of nowhere or a recorded enemy. She was unaware obviously that she was talking to her killer (or anyone's killer for that matter), this is pure self-preservation instict and common sense.
But she was familiar with her soon-to-be murderer, and the only explanation is that he was neither a random local figure or some West Ender gone slum-hoping (let alone a prestigious socialite who is the target of some blackmailing scheme).
This was not soliciting with the purpose of sex but a private conversation, and my assumption is it was part and parcel of the blackmail scam.
She thought she was talking to some familiar (not unknwn/random) local person who promised to provide incriminating info and help in on the scam.
Probably bound to return home right afterwards and fill in that drunk pathetic excuse of a "boyfriend" on the specifics.
I presume she was never informed of the first hit - and how could she have been?
It was 1:16 when the Stride scene was acknowleged as such, by that time Eddowes was in too deep to get out.
This is too orchestrated a double hit to be pulled off by an amateur/civilian or a "weirdo" sex freak.
What Eddowes' last half hour validates, in its shroud of darkness, is that (1) sex could not have been the purpose (2) at 1:30 am in a seedy no-man's-land you dont solicit strangers in the thich of the autumn of terror (3) the trajectory after prison release is in a direction implying deliberate "destination" (4) you dont do that unless you're hurried to meet someone whom you CANNOT describe as random or hostile, but on the contrary familiar (5) the hurriedness (if its just for a cup of tea you dont do that at 1:30 am, you leave that for the morning next) implies some urgent information to be disclosed --- in compliance with prior "deliberate" actions (last 48 hrs) and the suggested scam.
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NEWSPAPERS OF THE TIME REVEAL THAT CATHERINE EDDOWES OFTEN USED THE SURNAME OF JOHN KELLY
AFTER JOHN KELLY IDENTIFIED HER:
The body that was found in Mitre-square has been positively identified as that of a woman named Kelly…
The Star, 3 October, 1888.
All doubt as to the identification of the victim of the Mitre-square murder has now been removed. Her real name is Catherine Edowes (sic), but she was best known as Catharine Kelly.
The Daily Telegraph, 4 October, 1888.
On Thursday the inquest on Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The City Press, 6 October, 1888.
The adjourned inquest on the body of Catherine Eddowes, alias Kelly…
The St. James Gazette, 12 October, 1888.
It’s obvious that Eddowes was known as Kelly and that she took the name from John Kelly her common law “husband” of some seven years. Nothing more needs to be read into that. As I also pointed out Eddowes must have known Kelly’s ex-wife Mary Anne Kelly – the name she gave at Bishopsgate Police Station.
No official report still exists on the actual name written on the pawn ticket. Some newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Jane Kelly” (The Pall Mall Gazette, 1 October, 1888, and The Daily News, 3 October, 1888, are examples). However, other newspapers stated that the pawn ticket was made out to the name “Anne Kelly” (The Star, 1 October, 1888, and the Times, 2 October, 1888, for example).
THANKS TO WOLF VANDERLINDEN WHO'S PAST POST WAS SIMPLY EDITED BY ME.
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"No official report still exists on the actual name written on the pawn ticket"
So it's like the graffiti. Two different versions and nowhere left to go.
The mere fact that we cannot decide about the actual content of this otherwise hard evidence goes to prove how sloppy and disorganized police work was, with regard to the last known actions of the victims and their whereabouts. The police never considered them to be correlated victims and didn't even bother to check. The press was more willing to investigate.
The last days of a murdered person's life is scrutinized -- or so it should be. Even more so, in a case of serial homicides.
But this concerns the issue of alias-es and whether there is "something more there" or not.
Concerning the "familiarity with the killer" as to the actions of the last half hour, I would appreciate a response, in non-caps-lock mode, thank you!Comment
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She used John Kelly's surname and a couple of randomly selected first names. There's no need to come up with wild theories!Originally posted by Lipsky View Post
But her being away hopping affects her ability to plan with Elizabeth Stride, inform Jack he is wanted at this meeting for a 'friendly discussion", so he better be there wearing a red scarf because I don't want to have a friendly discussion with the wrong man. Her being away hopping on the date that the reward for Information appeared, makes blackmail impossible!Originally posted by Lipsky View Post
Earlier rewards were for the CAPTURE of the villain! and if she was going to do that she would have needed a lot more than a white-handled table knife.
Throw this theory on the pile of useless theories!
Last edited by Leanne; 09-02-2019, 10:42 PM.Comment
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She went there to sell herself! She had no money for food nor a bed nor to purchase John's boots back, (That's why she kept the pawn ticket!). She was prepared to do something a little out-of-character.
If it was too early in the morning for any desperate hawkers to be around the orange suppliers, she'd wait. (hand-on-shoulder = "I'm happy to have found such an eager costermonger." Does anyone expect her to have gone home empty handed for a 'fine hiding" and come back later with a red bum?
She had no time to plan anything with Elizabeth Stride, and inform the killer to meet her. The killer had to have known that Stride was involved to have 'silenced' her first.
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If she knew Mary Jane Kelly and for some reason wanted the Bishopsgate Police to think she was her, why didn't she give the name Mary Jane Kelly of 13/26 Dorset Street???????
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Correction - Kelly lived at 13 Miller's Court.Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
It may technically have been part of 26 Dorset Street, but Miller's Court was an entity in its own right and was known as such, as is abundantly clear from the statements of numerous witnesses. Mary Kelly's room was basically an outhouse at the back of the building, abutting directly onto the courtyard, so it was even more part of the "Court" than Elizabeth Prater's. Now, her room was the first (American: second) floor front of #26 itself... yet Prater gives her address as "20 Room, Miller's Court", not "26 Dorset Street".
Joe Barnett said he had lived with Kelly "at 13 Room Miller's Court" for eight months prior to her death, and Mrs Cox deposed that "I live at Number 5 Room, Miller's Court", not "27 Dorset Street". Julia Venturney testified that she lived in "Number 1 Room, Miller's Court", and Sarah Lewis stated that she knew Mrs Keyler and "went to her house at 2 Miller's Court at 2:30 AM on Friday". Similarly, a little further down the road, Maria Harvey testified that she lived at "Number 3 New Court", even though the latter was part of 33 and 34 Dorset Street.
There's a clear pattern here. Everyone referred to "Miller's [or New] Court" not the "parent" property on Dorset Street, and they invariably prefaced it with a room number.
If Eddowes had known of Mary Jane Kelly, she'd also have known full well that she lived at Miller's Court, and would almost certainly have given her address accordingly. If she was thinking of twenty-six Dorset Street, surely she'd have known that it was split up into multiple rooms, yet we don't even get a room number. All we get is plain "6 Dorset Street", which was a dwelling in its own right, not divided into separate lodgings.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)Comment
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I'd also add that the sign above the arched entrance to Kelly's (et al's) rooms clearly read "Miller's Court", so that would have been known to anyone even moderately familiar with Dorset Street. As to "26", at best that would have been a small number on the front door... assuming there was a number affixed there at all.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)Comment
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The meeting time and place was established that afternoon when someone got her hammered. She knew enough to keep her mouth shut at the jail, being "nothing" to worry about. I think the red scarf was used to catch her eye, yes, if that is Kate with Sailor Man that Lawende sees. The plot line is far from complicated Leanne,...desperation and greed, bad guys, bad ending. She was in over her head. Kelly knew enough to not come charging forward demanding to know what happened to his "wife", I think he knew better what kind of trouble they were stirring up. Maybe a spunky little headstrong woman, ( I sort of see Kate that way), in desperate need of some easy money, acted impulsively and found herself alone with a killer.Originally posted by Leanne View PostComment
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Inquest: Mary Jane Kelly
Monday, November 12, 1888
(The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, November 13, 1888)Yesterday [12 Nov], at the Shoreditch Town Hall, Dr. Macdonald, M.P., the coroner for the North- Eastern District of Middlesex, opened his inquiry relative to the death of Marie Jeanette Kelly, the woman whose body was discovered on Friday morning, terribly mutilated, in a room on the ground floor of 26, Dorset-street, entrance to which was by a side door in Miller's-court.
Sam,
It was the parlor or games room of the house.
If some one was sent to the rear of the house,that is where they would have found themself.My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
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Agree 100%. That about sums it up for me. Of course, I do not suggest that Michael agrees on me with the blackmailing scheme theory. This is my own interpretation of the context in which what Michael described (and I concur) happened on the evening/night of Saturday/early hours of Sunday.Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Concerning the logical phallacies as to "26 Dorset" , Dave's answer says it all.
I think the "randomness" explanation (lack of, really) to what went down, and the persistent rejection of all "occurings" as nothing more than "coincidence" in an extremely narrowed down geography of people/addresses, money-seeking and outsmarted murdered ill-advised women is so...last century
Time to acknowledge the pattern of events and connect the glaring dots.Comment
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A prostitute attempting to blackmail a serial killer of prostitutes who cuts their throats and rips out their internal organs. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?
Why not go to the police with her evidence if she really had anything more than just a hunch? Surely if she could have convinced them that her information was correct she could have gotten some money in return for what she had to tell them. Maybe not as much as blackmailing a killer but certainly a lot safer.
c.d.Comment
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She would probably be the next victim of the serial killer and was. Especially if she only had a white-handled table knife to defend herself with. It's the silliest theory I've ever heard here.Originally posted by c.d. View Post
* Firstly rewards for ' INFORMATION that lead to....' weren't offered until a time when Kate and John were away hopping. Any rewards were for his CAPTURE. For the killer to know that Stride was involved, he would have had to have been told by Kate when she had that meeting and where she was going to be.Originally posted by c.d. View Post
* And the reward wasn't offered by the police. They were offered by the Vigilance Committee and editors.
* The Police officials and government didn't offer rewards because they often lead to false leads and that's why they argued against them until after Kates murder.
What information could she have had to make the killer so scared?
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Hello Leanne,
I hope you picked up the sarcasm when I asked what could possibly go wrong.
If she went to the police it wouldn't have necessarily been for a reward per se. They had money on hand for informers did they not?
c.d.Comment
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