Kate's Last Half Hour

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Leanne,

Yep.

It would be like where I reside.
My mail is picked up from the Local Post Office. Her's at McCarthy's front shop.
Probably sorted by name.

Genuinely wonder at times if Mary Kelly had Multiple Personality Disorder,hence Mary Ann Kelly and/or Mary Jane Kelly.

What about Marie Jeanette mon ami? I genuinely wonder what might have been the real name of the woman in room 13, (as stated Sam, which was part of #26 Dorset, only renamed to Millers Court when converted from a parlor to a single room).

[DJA]

Didnt McCarthy pay fro her funeral ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No,he didn't.

Mr.H.Wilson,St. Leonard's Church's sexton,met the total cost.

[DJA]

Is there any actual evidence for that happening? Or is this just an assumption because McCarthy knew she received letters from her mother?

Doubt Mary Ann Kelly received any mail from a mother in Ireland, as she was a local girl,baptised at St. Leonard's Church 29 years earlier.

Sutton became Vestry medical officer several years later.

Just standard practice for that type of accommodation.

[Joshua Rogan]

Didnt McCarthy pay fro her funeral?

No. Reportedly he did offer to pay some of the costs, but it was paid for by Mr Wilton, the clerk of St Leonards. Strange that he was apparently open to donations, but it seems not from McCarthy.

Evening News, 14 Nov;

"The funeral of the murdered woman Kelly will not take place until after the arrival from Wales of some of her relatives and friends, who are expected to reach London this evening. If they be unable to provide the necessary funeral expenses, Mr. H Wilton, of 119 High street, Shoreditch, has guaranteed that the unfortunate woman shall not be buried in a pauper's grave. Any person, however, who may be desirous of sharing the expense with Mr. Wilton can communicate with him"

15 Nov;
"The relatives of the murdered woman, who were expected yesterday, have not yet arrived. The funeral has been again postponed, and may not take place until Monday. Yesterday afternoon the remains were removed from the temporary coffin in which they have been lying at the Shoreditch Mortuary, and placed in a coffin of French polished elm and oak, with brass handles, in which they will be interred. Mr. McCarthy, the landlord of the deceased, offered to defray part of the cost of the funeral, but his offer was declined, sufficient funds for the purpose having already been subscribed."

16 Nov;
"As an instance of the widespread sympathy with the unfortunate victims in the East-end which prevails throughout this great metropolis of strangers, it may be stated that last evening a young lady took to Mr. M'Carthy a beautiful floral wreath which she had made for this the purpose, and desired to place it personally on the coffin of the deceased. In consequence of the funeral arrangements not having been completed, this, she was informed, she could not do."

19 Nov;
"The funeral of the murdered woman Kelly took place, at the Roman Catholic Cemetery, Leytonstone, this afternoon, the remains being removed thither from the Shoreditch mortuary. Large crowds were present.

Three large wreaths were on the coffin, which bore the inscription, "Marie Jeanette Kelly, died November 9, 1888, aged 25 years." The car was followed by two mourning coaches."

Daily News 20 Nov;
"The whole of the funeral expenses are defrayed by Mr. H. Wilton, who for fifty years has acted as clerk to St. Leonard's Shoreditch, in the mortuary of which church the body has been lying."

[Sam Flynn]

which was part of #26 Dorset, only renamed to Millers Court when converted from a parlor to a single room

Eh? It had been known as Miller's Court long before Kelly (or McCarthy) was there.

[DJA]

Eh? It had been known as Miller's Court long before Kelly (or McCarthy) was there.

From 1861 and possibly as Miller's Rents from circa 1851 when three residences were listed in the census.

The parlor that was to become number 13 was obviously tagged on sometime after the other 6 buildings/12 residences had been built.

No doubt Michael is correct.

Crikey,you're a long way off course for someone who wanted to limit this thread to Eddowes.

[Michael W Richards]

Eh? It had been known as Miller's Court long before Kelly (or McCarthy) was there.

Yeah, after it was converted from the parlour in #26...its within the same house frame for god sakes Sam. It may have its door open to the court, and as such, a Millers Court address, but saying it wasn't within #26 just isn't accurate.

[Lipsky]

What about Marie Jeanette mon ami? I genuinely wonder what might have been the real name of the woman in room 13, (as stated Sam, which was part of #26 Dorset, only renamed to Millers Court when converted from a parlor to a single room).

The recurring theme of "Mary Ann" was so strong that I think its own saga was incorporated in the "conspiracies" mythos of Ripperdom.
Look past the specifics, and the big picture provides a huge pile of lies and scam.
Anyone thinking these are all random issues (the "shut down" on MJK right after the inquest, total absence of ANY concrete facts from established sources ,as if the woman was a ghost) and most of these women being set up to "meetings" that led to their murders, has probably a wider imagination than the common sense that there was shady extortion going on, involving money (what ELSE?) and that theatrical-terrorist murder/executions with mutilations was the counter-attack.

So our discussion so far hints that:
1. Maybe the alias-es were not random.
2. Maybe both name and address of alias hinted to (coincidence!) the next victim. Was Eddowes prophetic?
3. Aside from prophetic, it makes little sense that she non-challantly strolled in a part of town quite opposite to where she would head, if going home, under normal condition.
4. Deliberate trajectory can mean she had (1) a pre-designated meeting (2) she was up for soliciting after massive drunkedness and hangover at 1:30 am in the middle of nowhere, and not in some well-familiar pub close to home (which would make more sense).
5. If (1) is true, maybe- just maybe - it was part of the scam. Maybe you dont go out at 1:30 just to see an old friend or your interior decorator.

For those who think these women did not "scam", their very prostitution was a "Scam". Most of these women were too old, wasted, and lowdown to attract any "client" with their minds in their (upper) heads. Poverty and desperation were the running topics of Whitechapel theme park, circa 1888.

[DJA]

John Miller was a butcher who moved into 30 Dorset Street in the 1830s.
He then also purchased 26 & 27,erecting the first three two storey cottages at the rear by 1851.
There is a drawing of 26/27 with a tall security gate at the end of the covered passage,if you can find it.
Certainly built late 17th century for well off silk weavers.

[DJA]

Was it also a coincidence that Mary Kelly had not paid rent since the double event!

[Lipsky]

Was it also a coincidence that Mary Kelly had not paid rent since the double event!

My thoughts exactly, Dave.
Probably McCarthy cut her some slack, as events led to the climax.
Seemingly a "detente", I think that October had a lot of action "behind the scenes" in Whitechapel.

[DJA]

Someone alerted Jack that Barnett had left and the coast was clear.

I nominate McCarthy.

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah, after it was converted from the parlour in #26...its within the same house frame for god sakes Sam. It may have its door open to the court, and as such, a Millers Court address, but saying it wasn't within #26 just isn't accurate.

I didn't say that. I said that every resident - every resident - interviewed by the press and/or at the inquest gave their address as "Miller's Court" together with their room number; Sarah Lewis, a mere visitor to the Keylers, did exactly the same. Nobody - nobody - referred to 26 or 27 Dorset Street, a pattern followed by Maria Harvey who lived in nearby New Court, despite its being within 33 and 34 Dorset Street.

Tbis "alphabetti spaghetti" approach to the two sets of false credentials used by Eddowes is ridiculous. The only way to connect the names is by munging the two aliases together and dropping the "Ann". In terms of the address, we need to add a "twenty-" prefix to "6 Fashion Street", then transplant that invented "26" into "Jane Kelly of Dorset Street". Then we need to overlook the fact that we have no mention of a room number, and no mention of Miller's Court - which is remarkable, given that it was clearly known as Miller's Court, and there was a sign at the Court's entrance which advertised its name.

[c.d.]

A pittance compared with what extortion could offer. So you have the context correctly, at that same place and time a double agent, one who had a history of involvement in anti government terrorist plots, was paid 5000L to testify at the hearings. By my reckoning, approximately, that's close to 3/4 million L today. There was money floating around, more that a few quid as a informant or with a reward of 100L. I mentioned desperation in my previous post, that's a flag here...for a motive for her trying this at all. John has no boots for god sakes, Im sure they knew that this needs fixing... like, today. As for the trail of victims to that point, there had not even been 2 disemboweling yet, just 1, this was not yet a full blown monster. The legend became one in room 13.

Hello Michael,

Yes, a pittance I agree. But keep in mind here that they were not trying to extort money from a fellow employee who dipped their hand into the till on occasion. They were trying to extort money from a killer. Either they were incredibly stupid and/or naive or they had absolutely major league cojones. At least, the police were not (hopefully) going to cut their throats even though the amount of money paid out might have been small.

c.d.

[Lipsky]

Hello Michael,

Yes, a pittance I agree. But keep in mind here that they were not trying to extort money from a fellow employee who dipped their hand into the till on occasion. They were trying to extort money from a killer. Either they were incredibly stupid and/or naive or they had absolutely major league cojones. At least, the police were not (hopefully) going to cut their throats even though the amount of money paid out might have been small.

c.d.

In their eyes, murder only upped the stakes.
From a calm, cold, rational point of view, blackmail schemes pulled off by the underdogs against some "upper" rarely have a happy ending, much less pay off.
But this was the rationale of some desperate women and a bunch of greedy pimps/landlords who couldnt care less.
Our man appeared as someone who could provide "inside info" as a local/familiar face and lured these women to their demise.
Improbable a bunch of shady businessmen and some poor, ill-advised prostitutes would approach the police.
"Oh yeah, we tried to pull a blackmail but now we drop down like flies, please protect us". Aint gonna happen - and didnt.
They knew they were abandoned by the "authorities" of all sorts, anyway --- otherwise, they wouldnt have ended up in the slums of Dorset street.