Kate's Last Half Hour

[Leanne]

Swanson said he had the appearance of a sailor. Did Lawende say that? Street sellers had the appearance of sailors. Workers who didn't want to ruin their dress-hats if they were lucky enough to own one.

Kate wasn't trying to sell the apron at 1:30. It was in her pocket with a repair already made, so she could sell it sometime during the day.

I'm not implying the killer had 14 minutes to do the mutilation. He only needed 5.

I do not use capital letters to signify yelling. I use them as headings or to emphasize words. I don't read sounds.

And if you are going to insist Lawende saw someone else you are going to have to put Kate in the picture. Where was she?

[Leanne]

Kate wasn't trying to sell the apron at 1:30. It was in her pocket with a repair already made, so she could sell it sometime during the day.

if the repair was made so she could wear it again herself, why didn't she put it back on?

[Michael W Richards]

Swanson said he had the appearance of a sailor. Did Lawende say that? Street sellers had the appearance of sailors. Workers who didn't want to ruin their dress-hats if they were lucky enough to own one.

Kate wasn't trying to sell the apron at 1:30. It was in her pocket with a repair already made, so she could sell it sometime during the day.

I'm not implying the killer had 14 minutes to do the mutilation. He only needed 5.

I do not use capital letters to signify yelling. I use them as headings or to emphasize words. I don't read sounds.

And if you are going to insist Lawende saw someone else you are going to have to put Kate in the picture. Where was she?

Lawende said he couldnt identify anyone after only 10 days, and he only saw Kates back. And contemporary police speculated whether she may have been "dropped", which many people assumed meant rolled out of a hansom I suppose. She could have been carried and dropped too. Even from a nearby empty warehouse. And for the future, I don't owe you a fully fleshed out argument with a named warehouse space and bad guy. Just pointing out Lawende is not the reliable sighting he has been made out to be, and that means other explanations for where Kate was are still in play.

[Leanne]

Lawende said he couldnt identify anyone after only 10 days, and he only saw Kates back.

but it's the only possible sighting they had.

And contemporary police speculated whether she may have been "dropped", which many people assumed meant rolled out of a hansom I suppose. She could have been carried and dropped too. Even from a nearby empty warehouse.

They had to consider everything. What evidence did they have to go on? Was there any blood drops anywhere else....near any empty warehouse door?

[Sam Flynn]

And contemporary police speculated whether she may have been "dropped", which many people assumed meant rolled out of a hansom I suppose. She could have been carried and dropped too. Even from a nearby empty warehouse.

Extremely unlikely, given that her abdomen had been opened from top to bottom, her entrails pulled out, and was losing blood from a deep throat wound. Not only would the body have been awkward to carry with all those viscera slopping about, but there'd have been a trail of blood from wherever she'd been carried leading to where she was found. None of this appears to have been the case.

[Michael W Richards]

Extremely unlikely, given that her abdomen had been opened from top to bottom, her entrails pulled out, and was losing blood from a deep throat wound. Not only would the body have been awkward to carry with all those viscera slopping about, but there'd have been a trail of blood from wherever she'd been carried leading to where she was found. None of this appears to have been the case.

She may not have been disemboweled yet Sam. Might not even be dead yet. Not that I buy into this premise, its just for discussion. And it was a short lived theory of some of the contemporary investigators.

[Michael W Richards]

but it's the only possible sighting they had.

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They had to consider everything. What evidence did they have to go on? Was there any blood drops anywhere else....near any empty warehouse door?

I know it was their only sighting, that's why they even sequestered Lawende while they investigated his story...didn't do that for Israel...nor Georgie boy. Its not a strong ID though, and he admitted to his inability to even recognize the man he did see within 10 days.

[Sam Flynn]

She may not have been disemboweled yet Sam. Might not even be dead yet. Not that I buy into this premise, its just for discussion. And it was a short lived theory of some of the contemporary investigators.

But it overcomplicates matters, and the most practical solutions are usually the most likely ones. Bearing in mind, also, that Kate was known to have been in the approximate vicinity when she was released from Bishopsgate station not long before, there's little reason to devise elaborate mechanisms for getting her to Mitre Square.

[miss marple]

Well, that's a very lively discussion,flights of fancy about poor old Joe and Fenians and organised crime. I just want to make one small point which seems fairly obvious to me, that Kate's rags were sanitary rags, there was even mention of blood.If she was in pre menopause her periods could get erratic and bloody. Sorry guys. I don't think she was planning to sell her apron. although she may have been planning to make some hankies with the linen.if she had been menstruating, that would have been a good reason not to spend the night with Kelly.

Miss Marple

[Michael W Richards]

Well, that's a very lively discussion,flights of fancy about poor old Joe and Fenians and organised crime. I just want to make one small point which seems fairly obvious to me, that Kate's rags were sanitary rags, there was even mention of blood.If she was in pre menopause her periods could get erratic and bloody. Sorry guys. I don't think she was planning to sell her apron. although she may have been planning to make some hankies with the linen.if she had been menstruating, that would have been a good reason not to spend the night with Kelly.

Miss Marple

"Poor Old Joe" made me laugh,.. he lied about when they pawned his boots, he knew that Kate was in Bishopsgate and didn't care when she didn't come to where he was after her release, he says they were "partners" that acted like a married couple...interesting distinction there. He is shifty, and that can be seen even now. On the Fenians, and organized crime, since both of those were prevalent through London in 1888, its almost prudent to include either group as potentials in many of the Unsolved Murders.

[Sam Flynn]

"Poor Old Joe" made me laugh,.. he lied about when they pawned his boots, he knew that Kate was in Bishopsgate and didn't care when she didn't come to where he was after her release, he says they were "partners" that acted like a married couple...interesting distinction there. He is shifty...

I think you're reading far too much into things, Michael, and I don't see anything sinister in what John Kelly said or did at all. Have you been taking Lechmere pills?

[miss marple]

'Poor old Joe' I was referring to Joe Barnett, as Leanne has used a lot of this thread attacking him and trying to implicate him with spurious claims. Why Michael thought 'Joe' meant Kelly is odd.

Miss Marple

[Leanne]

"Poor Old Joe" made me laugh,.. he lied about when they pawned his boots,

WHY? If it was a deliberate lie what was his reason, when it was a fact that could be easily checked.

he knew that Kate was in Bishopsgate and didn't care when she didn't come to where he was after her release,

It had probably happened before.

[Busy Beaver]

Well, that's a very lively discussion,flights of fancy about poor old Joe and Fenians and organised crime. I just want to make one small point which seems fairly obvious to me, that Kate's rags were sanitary rags, there was even mention of blood.If she was in pre menopause her periods could get erratic and bloody. Sorry guys. I don't think she was planning to sell her apron. although she may have been planning to make some hankies with the linen.if she had been menstruating, that would have been a good reason not to spend the night with Kelly.

Miss Marple

Agreed.

[Leanne]

Lawende said he couldnt identify anyone after only 10 days, and he only saw Kates back. And contemporary police speculated whether she may have been "dropped", which many people assumed meant rolled out of a hansom I suppose. She could have been carried and dropped too. Even from a nearby empty warehouse. And for the future, I don't owe you a fully fleshed out argument with a named warehouse space and bad guy. Just pointing out Lawende is not the reliable sighting he has been made out to be, and that means other explanations for where Kate was are still in play.

INQUEST:

Detective-Sergeant John Mitchell, …...…............................................. ..
Mr. Crawford: The theory has been put forward that it was possible for the deceased to have been murdered elsewhere, and her body brought to where it was found. I should like to ask Dr. Gordon Brown, who is present, what his opinion is about that.
Dr. Gordon Brown: I do not think there is any foundation for such a theory. The blood on the left side was clotted, and must have fallen at the time the throat was cut. I do not think that the deceased moved the least bit after that.
The Coroner: The body could not have been carried to where it was found? - Witness: Oh, no.