Seaside Home?

[Bridewell]

Ashburnham

OMG...

Harvey was born in Ashbourne (or Ashboureham, or something like that, I working from memory here)

Before joining the force Harvey worked in...wait for it....Brighton.

Infact, the City Police asked the Brighton force to obtain a reference from his previous employer.

Also, Harvey lived in Temple Walk, a spit from Druitt at Kings Bench walk. Could this be the sighting?

Its all falling into place.

By the way, Harveys dismissal is noted in the order books, along with numerous others, some of which have their records missing.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I hadn't made the Brighton connection, so top marks for picking up on it (bit annoyed that I didn't see it myself though!)

I think we simply must, by some means find out the reason for Harvey's dismissal. I gather (from recollection it was an article in Ripperologist) that his personal file still exists but that, unusually, the reason for his dismissal is not recorded thereon. Happy to be corrected on that, but that was my understanding.

According to AA Route Finder Ashburnham is 31.4 miles from Brighton btw.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

conclusion

Hello Mac. A conclusion? In Ripperology? (Heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Which Warehouse job are you refering to? Before or after his police service?

There was a beneficial charity of sorts for ex policemen but that provided more financial assistance rathers than providing medical/convalesing support. Therefore I see no reason for him to be at the home as a resident.

At the time of the alledged I.D. in 91 he was living at Tower Hamlets Road, West Ham. His daughter was born in nearby Stratford in 89 and he died in 1903, in the West Ham area. It would indicate that he lived in West Ham from 89 to 03.

The reason for death is something, quite ironically, that I'm currently working on so if you are willing to wait a few weeks I can expand on that.

At time of passing, Harvey was marked as a Foreman Dustman.



As noted to Dave, he does have Brighton area connections. As a young man he worked for Shaws Grocers till 75. Its possible, and this is conjecture, that he had relatives in Brighton area and convinience has him there, visiting them, at time of the parade. However, I very much stress that I've no evidence of this.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Thanks for the reply. Very helpful.

I meant the job after his dismissal.
I note also his dismissal coming in the same year as the birth of hìs daughter, and wondered, speculatively, if the two are connected (celebrating in a pub, going awol for ex) . He was dismissed 1st July I believe-The birth was?

Of course the c.o.d. work you have in hand can wait.

Many thanks

Phil

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

Which Warehouse job are you refering to? Before or after his police service?

There was a beneficial charity of sorts for ex policemen but that provided more financial assistance rathers than providing medical/convalesing support. Therefore I see no reason for him to be at the home as a resident.

At the time of the alledged I.D. in 91 he was living at Tower Hamlets Road, West Ham. His daughter was born in nearby Stratford in 89 and he died in 1903, in the West Ham area. It would indicate that he lived in West Ham from 89 to 03.

The reason for death is something, quite ironically, that I'm currently working on so if you are willing to wait a few weeks I can expand on that.

At time of passing, Harvey was marked as a Foreman Dustman.

As noted to Dave, he does have Brighton area connections. As a young man he worked for Shaws Grocers till 75. Its possible, and this is conjecture, that he had relatives in Brighton area and convinience has him there, visiting them, at time of the parade. However, I very much stress that I've no evidence of this.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. I seem to recall an old thread about Mitre sq being a trap on that night.

That might explain Halse's remarks at inquest about that night--given, of course, they were not standard ones.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

And the conclusion must have been they were watching for someone else and Jack just rolled up by chance?

[lynn cates]

orders

Hello Mac. I seem to recall an old thread about Mitre sq being a trap on that night.

That might explain Halse's remarks at inquest about that night--given, of course, they were not standard ones.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

I miss Gavin Bromley.

I remember our 'chats' re PC beats and our meeting in Wolves back in 2007. A really top bloke who's presence in the field made it such a better place.

Gavin and I did disagree on Harveys times however his opinions are very valid and I will not go completely against them.

His work re the Batty Street lodger is a must read.

Monty

Hello Monty,

A couple of questions if I may?

As I havent got your Rip 109 (correct No.?) re. Harvey, I dont know how long Harvey worked as a warehouse man nor his cause of death. And have you had an indication of any illness that would have given reason to a trip to any rest home at the seaside? Also, have you found any indication that dismissed ex-policemen would be allowed access to any said rest home?
Thanks in advance.

Regards

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Lynn,

Watkins, I believe, had been previously disciplined for having sexual intercourse whilst on duty - and kept his job. I am assuming (always risky, but logical sometimes) that Harvey's offence was viewed as worse than that of Watkins, for him to lose his job.

Pure speculation (nothing more): As Harvey arrives at Church Passage, a man emerges carrying a knife and a piece of blood-stained apron. Harvey doesn't challenge him and, aware of the implications, after the murder is discovered, keeps quiet about what he saw. The story later comes to light - belated admission perhaps - & rumours of it circulate for a while. Hence MacNaghten:
"No-one ever saw the Ripper, unless perhaps it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" found in the Lady Aberconway version (MacNaghten's file copy?), but not in the MacNaghten Memoranda in the official files.

"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" is very specific. It doesn't fit Pc Smith on Berner Street, doesn't fit Schwartz, doesn't fit Lawende, but does fit James Harvey. I keep hearing how MacNaghten got it wrong. I simply think we should consider the possibility that he actually got it right.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hello Bridewell,

I'm with you.

I just can't believe that anyone let alone a senior policeman is a slavering idiot who when he says "City PC", he really means the witness in the city police district. Forget the context and ask yourself how likely that is.

What about this for a little theory. Now I know this is far fetched but here goes:

The man and woman seen by Lawende and associates were deliberately standing there to block the entrance - part of a police sting. This may explain the 'only one entrance into the square' and the cul-de-sac. It was a cul-de-sac assuming the other two entrances were watched/blocked. The two men in hiding being Harvey and Morris.

A few holes in there, granted, but I personally think there is mileage in the witness being a City PC.

[Monty]

I miss Gavin Bromley.

I remember our 'chats' re PC beats and our meeting in Wolves back in 2007. A really top bloke who's presence in the field made it such a better place.

Gavin and I did disagree on Harveys times however his opinions are very valid and I will not go completely against them.

His work re the Batty Street lodger is a must read.

Monty

[jason_c]

Jason,

According to Gavin Bromley's monumental tour de force, "City Beat I and II" in Ripperologist Nos. 74 & 75 (December 2006 & January 2007) there would seem no anomalous beat times for either Harvey or Watkins that fatal night. Unfortunately, simply stating Gavin's conclusions does not do justice to his incredibly detailed and informative articles. I would suggest you get those issues if you don't already have them.

Don.

Supe,

Thanks for the information. I vaguely remember reading on casebook an analysis of the beats around Mitre Square the night in question. However, I couldnt remember the conclusions which were reached.

[Supe]

Jason,

According to Gavin Bromley's monumental tour de force, "City Beat I and II" in Ripperologist Nos. 74 & 75 (December 2006 & January 2007) there would seem no anomalous beat times for either Harvey or Watkins that fatal night. Unfortunately, simply stating Gavin's conclusions does not do justice to his incredibly detailed and informative articles. I would suggest you get those issues if you don't already have them.

Don.

[jason_c]

Whoever it was if in fact there is any truth to the story all they had to say was "Yes as as I approached the square I did see a man coming out but at that time I was not aware that a crime had been committed, and had no reason to stop and check him, he was not carrying anything. To the best of my recollection I would descsribe him as .......................

Unless he was asked why his route timing was off by so much?* Or why didnt the policeman investigate the square? Why hadnt he stopped this man exiting a known place of prostitution? And what exactly did he appear to be stuffing into his jacket?


I dont know if his timed route was out of sync, it is a possibility though.

[lynn cates]

old age

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Thought I was getting old. (Oh, dear--I am!)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

serious

Hello Bridewell. Thanks. I have always thought it quite serious. Wish we knew more.

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Hello Stephen. No story about a low class Polish Jew who was identified but not given up? Quite certain?

You're right as usual, Lynn

I really must check the A-Z before posting such stuff

All the best