Seaside Home?

[Cogidubnus]

Left hand down a bit number one...

deleted

[Bridewell]

I Agree

One sincerely hopes so.

Monty

Hi Monty,

For what it's worth, I agree with you. His "normal beat" is the area he normally covers, not necessarily the route. The route varied; the area for which he had responsibility did not. Right-handed = clockwise; left-handed = anti-clockwise.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

One sincerely hopes so.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

The beat is his normal beat in termsof the streets named. However his route (the order he visited these streets) was not usual for Watkins. Again, as stated, Rob Houses diagram is correct for that specific night.

....anyone got an asprin?

Monty

I give up all will be revealed in due course. There is a method in my madness !

[Monty]

You are missing my point the beat he describes in his inquest testimony is his normal beat and the direction of travel on that normal beat is in Robs map.

If it were reversed the direction of travel would be the opposite way would it not. He would still visit the same streets but for example instead of going up Leadenhall street he would have gone down it.?

The beat is his normal beat in termsof the streets named. However his route (the order he visited these streets) was not usual for Watkins. Again, as stated, Rob Houses diagram is correct for that specific night.

....anyone got an asprin?

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

No, his normal beat was right handed. He had just been informed to work left handed that night.

Also, with reference to Bridewells suggestion, part of Watkins inquest testimony -

Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning.

[Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.

[Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.

Monty

You are missing my point the beat he describes in his inquest testimony is his normal beat and the direction of travel on that normal beat is in Robs map.

If it were reversed the direction of travel would be the opposite way would it not. He would still visit the same streets but for example instead of going up Leadenhall street he would have gone down it.?

[Monty]

I am not suggesting the details of the beat are wrong its a question of the fact that becasue his beat was reversed he would have approached the various streets on that beat from a different direction do you agree ?

I agree his normal beat was left handed but on that night being reversed it would be right handed . Robs map I suggest shows the normal beat and not the beat on the night of the murder.

No, his normal beat was right handed. He had just been informed to work left handed that night.

Also, with reference to Bridewells suggestion, part of Watkins inquest testimony -

Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning.

[Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.

[Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

I really do not understand your point here. His regular beat is still the same reversed or not. It seems he worked that beat for a number of years.

Rob is showing the direction of travel Watkins (and Harvey) took that night upon their beats. Watkins states it was left handed beat, meaning the majority of turns were to the left.

As Im sure you are aware, all beats are numbered (this one being 11 or 12 - I cant recall exact) for reference. Watkins lists his beat from starting point (Duke Street) and back, this is what you quote him as stating above. This is taken from the inquest and is Watkins explaining the exact order of his beat that night.


Theres no amibuigty, it is all straightforward.

Monty

I am not suggesting the details of the beat are wrong its a question of the fact that becasue his beat was reversed he would have approached the various streets on that beat from a different direction do you agree ?

I agree his normal beat was left handed but on that night being reversed it would be right handed . Robs map I suggest shows the normal beat and not the beat on the night of the murder.

[Monty]

Monty

I beleive there is an ambiguitiy with regards to Watkins beat on that night in the official reports he states "I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from.

What I would say he is referring to is his regular beat and this is what the map Rob House has posted shows which I questioned. However as is known the beat was reversed that night so his direction of travel would have surely been the opposite way.

He was never asked if that was the route he took that night so there has to be a concern. This may only be a minor matter but in the grand scheme of thing could be significant.

Trevor,

I really do not understand your point here. His regular beat is still the same reversed or not. It seems he worked that beat for a number of years.

Rob is showing the direction of travel Watkins (and Harvey) took that night upon their beats. Watkins states it was left handed beat, meaning the majority of turns were to the left.

As Im sure you are aware, all beats are numbered (this one being 11 or 12 - I cant recall exact) for reference. Watkins lists his beat from starting point (Duke Street) and back, this is what you quote him as stating above. This is taken from the inquest and is Watkins explaining the exact order of his beat that night.


Theres no amibuigty, it is all straightforward.

Monty

[lynn cates]

frequency

Hello Neil. Thanks for that. Do you know how frequently that occurred? Also, was the idea promoted at the upper levels?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Bridewell. Well, the mutilations are supposed to have run from 5-7 minutes. The attacker was likely finishing up whilst Harvey was in Church Passage. Watkins then came and found the body.

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

What a crazy thread.

[Trevor Marriott]

Robs diagram shows the beats as was on the night. As Dave states, they were reversed. And night beats were shortened, which is why there were more Bobbies on night shift than day shift.

Watkins says they were changed to a left handed beat that night.

Monty

Monty

I beleive there is an ambiguitiy with regards to Watkins beat on that night in the official reports he states "I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from.

What I would say he is referring to is his regular beat and this is what the map Rob House has posted shows which I questioned. However as is known the beat was reversed that night so his direction of travel would have surely been the opposite way.

He was never asked if that was the route he took that night so there has to be a concern. This may only be a minor matter but in the grand scheme of thing could be significant.

[Cogidubnus]

Kill someone, lay them down, disembowel them, detach a 2' length of intestine, extract a kidney, carve her face about and nick her eyelids, make good your escape, all in near total darkness. 2 - 3 minutes? Not enough time surely? If that's the case, JtR has to have been at work in Mitre Square while Harvey was walking down Church Passage. Either that or Harvey wasn't there. Did JtR observe the police and identify who the skivers were?

Hi Bridewell...I totally agree...trouble is, as you yourself point out, St James's Passage is generally left uncovered (not always as Monty points out, but at least some of the time)...unless it can be proved Mitre Square was a sting that night, I'm afraid there's a hole in the theory....

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Rounding the Squares...

I never realised before that no-one patrolled St James' Passage.

But it was pretty well sandwiched by two adjacent legs of PC Watkins' beat - do we have anywhere time estimates for his appearance at either end? Assuming his total beat was 14 minutes (that was the time I seem to recall) on a left-hand beat Mitre Square to St James Square is only going to be about four or five minutes...

Mind you...once Watkins is past St James' Square - yes ok - point taken...

Dave