Seaside Home?

[Monty]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

Sagar is incorrect.

90% of dismissals are alcohol related, from arriving at Muster drunk, drunk on duty, holding drink upon their person to being found in a pub whilst on duty and drunk in a public convinience.

The other 10% are varied and quite extensive.

I find it odd that there is no mention of Harvey being paraded infront of Henry Smith. Hutt for example, who struck a prisoner whilst the latter was in the dock, was called before Smith. Though the reason wasn't given.

There is no record that I've seen which states Harvey was called to explain himself.

Also, has anyone considered the timing in relation to this theory?

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

Whoever it was if in fact there is any truth to the story all they had to say was "Yes as as I approached the square I did see a man coming out but at that time I was not aware that a crime had been committed, and had no reason to stop and check him, he was not carrying anything. To the best of my recollection I would descsribe him as .......................

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

[Bridewell]

Maybe

Hello Jason, Bridewell. We know that Harvey was sacked. But that's not necessarily disgraced?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Watkins, I believe, had been previously disciplined for having sexual intercourse whilst on duty - and kept his job. I am assuming (always risky, but logical sometimes) that Harvey's offence was viewed as worse than that of Watkins, for him to lose his job.

Pure speculation (nothing more): As Harvey arrives at Church Passage, a man emerges carrying a knife and a piece of blood-stained apron. Harvey doesn't challenge him and, aware of the implications, after the murder is discovered, keeps quiet about what he saw. The story later comes to light - belated admission perhaps - & rumours of it circulate for a while. Hence MacNaghten:
"No-one ever saw the Ripper, unless perhaps it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" found in the Lady Aberconway version (MacNaghten's file copy?), but not in the MacNaghten Memoranda in the official files.

"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" is very specific. It doesn't fit Pc Smith on Berner Street, doesn't fit Schwartz, doesn't fit Lawende, but does fit James Harvey. I keep hearing how MacNaghten got it wrong. I simply think we should consider the possibility that he actually got it right.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Scott Nelson]

Was James Harvey, "James Hay"?

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Jason.

"He may have admitted later to his superiors that he got a sighting of someone. The police would not be comfortable if this news became public."

Ah! Thanks, that explains it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no?

Hello Stephen. No story about a low class Polish Jew who was identified but not given up? Quite certain?

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Hello Jason, Bridewell. We know that Harvey was sacked. But that's not necessarily disgraced?

Cheers.
LC

Lynn

I meant disgraced specifically in terms of Harvey's action the night of the double event. He may have admitted later to his superiors that he got a sighting of someone. The police would not be comfortable if this news became public.

His sacking may have been for an entirely different offence. This still doesnt explain why specifically the Seaside Home would be used. The Seaside Home surely wouldnt cater for sacked former policemen?

[Monty]

That's the one Dave.

Its all in Rob and my article.

Monty

[Cogidubnus]

Harvey was born in Ashbourne (or Ashboureham, or something like that, I working from memory here)

Before joining the force Harvey worked in...wait for it....Brighton.

Hi Monty...I think he was born in Ashburnham which is in East Sussex out Catsfield way....it's not that far from Battle...Rother area anyway...Oi be a Sussex lad with a Lunnon mother!

Dave

[bolo]

Hi Stephen,

Where, please, does Anderson mention the Jew on Jew identification?

it was indeed in the article in Blackwood's Magazine where Anderson mentioned it for the first time (quotes taken from JTR sourcebook, 2001 paperback, pg. 691):

"[...] And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews, for it is a remarkable fact that the people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice. [...]"

In a footnote he added:

"[...] I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who had ever a good view of the murderer at once identified him, but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.".

This led to a stern reply by a columnist called Mentor of the Jewish Chronicle a few days later.

Regards,

Boris

[Monty]

Harvey

OMG...

Harvey was born in Ashbourne (or Ashboureham, or something like that, I working from memory here)

Before joining the force Harvey worked in...wait for it....Brighton.

Infact, the City Police asked the Brighton force to obtain a reference from his previous employer.

Also, Harvey lived in Temple Walk, a spit from Druitt at Kings Bench walk. Could this be the sighting?

Its all falling into place.

By the way, Harveys dismissal is noted in the order books, along with numerous others, some of which have their records missing.

Monty

[Stephen Thomas]

Hello Stephen. I thought it was in the "Blackwood's" piece from 1910.

No it wasn't, Lynn, nor anywhere else to my knowlege.

[lynn cates]

same?

Hello Stephen. I thought it was in the "Blackwood's" piece from 1910. It caused a real fracas in the Jewish community when he said he was not given up because he was Jewish.

I recognise that the tale has distinctive features outside the "Marginalia" but it was my understanding that supporters were identifying these 2 pronouncements with one another.

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Hello Stephen. I was picking up on Dr. Anderson's tale that the witness recognised the suspect, but being Jewish . . .

Hello Lynn

I think 'Sir Robert' supercedes 'Dr Anderson'.

Where, please, does Anderson mention the Jew on Jew identification?

I had thought that this only appeared in the 1940s biography written by a family member.