Seaside Home?

[jason_c]

Hello Jason, Bridewell. We know that Harvey was sacked. But that's not necessarily disgraced?

Cheers.
LC

Lynn

I meant disgraced specifically in terms of Harvey's action the night of the double event. He may have admitted later to his superiors that he got a sighting of someone. The police would not be comfortable if this news became public.

His sacking may have been for an entirely different offence. This still doesnt explain why specifically the Seaside Home would be used. The Seaside Home surely wouldnt cater for sacked former policemen?

[lynn cates]

no?

Hello Stephen. No story about a low class Polish Jew who was identified but not given up? Quite certain?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Jason.

"He may have admitted later to his superiors that he got a sighting of someone. The police would not be comfortable if this news became public."

Ah! Thanks, that explains it.

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

Was James Harvey, "James Hay"?

[Bridewell]

Maybe

Hello Jason, Bridewell. We know that Harvey was sacked. But that's not necessarily disgraced?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Watkins, I believe, had been previously disciplined for having sexual intercourse whilst on duty - and kept his job. I am assuming (always risky, but logical sometimes) that Harvey's offence was viewed as worse than that of Watkins, for him to lose his job.

Pure speculation (nothing more): As Harvey arrives at Church Passage, a man emerges carrying a knife and a piece of blood-stained apron. Harvey doesn't challenge him and, aware of the implications, after the murder is discovered, keeps quiet about what he saw. The story later comes to light - belated admission perhaps - & rumours of it circulate for a while. Hence MacNaghten:
"No-one ever saw the Ripper, unless perhaps it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" found in the Lady Aberconway version (MacNaghten's file copy?), but not in the MacNaghten Memoranda in the official files.

"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" is very specific. It doesn't fit Pc Smith on Berner Street, doesn't fit Schwartz, doesn't fit Lawende, but does fit James Harvey. I keep hearing how MacNaghten got it wrong. I simply think we should consider the possibility that he actually got it right.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

[Trevor Marriott]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

Whoever it was if in fact there is any truth to the story all they had to say was "Yes as as I approached the square I did see a man coming out but at that time I was not aware that a crime had been committed, and had no reason to stop and check him, he was not carrying anything. To the best of my recollection I would descsribe him as .......................

[Monty]

Inspector Sagar was the chief officer appointed to confer with the metropolitan police in the search for the terrible Whitechapel murderer.
“We Believe,” he said, “that he came nearest to being captured after the Mitre Square murder in which the woman Kelly was the victim. She had been detained in Bishopsgate police station until 1 a. m. At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman’s body. He blew his whistle, and sent the other officers who rushed up in pursuit, the only thing to guide them being the sound of retreating footsteps. The sounds were followed to King’s Block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane, but the search got no further. On the wall was found scrawled in chalk, ‘The Jews Shall not be blamed for this.’”
The Seattle Daily Times, 4 February, 1905.

If Sagar is correct, this would indicate Constable Edward Watkins rather than Harvey.

Wolf.

Sagar is incorrect.

90% of dismissals are alcohol related, from arriving at Muster drunk, drunk on duty, holding drink upon their person to being found in a pub whilst on duty and drunk in a public convinience.

The other 10% are varied and quite extensive.

I find it odd that there is no mention of Harvey being paraded infront of Henry Smith. Hutt for example, who struck a prisoner whilst the latter was in the dock, was called before Smith. Though the reason wasn't given.

There is no record that I've seen which states Harvey was called to explain himself.

Also, has anyone considered the timing in relation to this theory?

Monty

[Stephen Thomas]

Hello Stephen. No story about a low class Polish Jew who was identified but not given up? Quite certain?

You're right as usual, Lynn

I really must check the A-Z before posting such stuff

All the best

[lynn cates]

serious

Hello Bridewell. Thanks. I have always thought it quite serious. Wish we knew more.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

old age

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Thought I was getting old. (Oh, dear--I am!)

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Whoever it was if in fact there is any truth to the story all they had to say was "Yes as as I approached the square I did see a man coming out but at that time I was not aware that a crime had been committed, and had no reason to stop and check him, he was not carrying anything. To the best of my recollection I would descsribe him as .......................

Unless he was asked why his route timing was off by so much?* Or why didnt the policeman investigate the square? Why hadnt he stopped this man exiting a known place of prostitution? And what exactly did he appear to be stuffing into his jacket?


I dont know if his timed route was out of sync, it is a possibility though.

[Supe]

Jason,

According to Gavin Bromley's monumental tour de force, "City Beat I and II" in Ripperologist Nos. 74 & 75 (December 2006 & January 2007) there would seem no anomalous beat times for either Harvey or Watkins that fatal night. Unfortunately, simply stating Gavin's conclusions does not do justice to his incredibly detailed and informative articles. I would suggest you get those issues if you don't already have them.

Don.

[jason_c]

Jason,

According to Gavin Bromley's monumental tour de force, "City Beat I and II" in Ripperologist Nos. 74 & 75 (December 2006 & January 2007) there would seem no anomalous beat times for either Harvey or Watkins that fatal night. Unfortunately, simply stating Gavin's conclusions does not do justice to his incredibly detailed and informative articles. I would suggest you get those issues if you don't already have them.

Don.

Supe,

Thanks for the information. I vaguely remember reading on casebook an analysis of the beats around Mitre Square the night in question. However, I couldnt remember the conclusions which were reached.

[Monty]

I miss Gavin Bromley.

I remember our 'chats' re PC beats and our meeting in Wolves back in 2007. A really top bloke who's presence in the field made it such a better place.

Gavin and I did disagree on Harveys times however his opinions are very valid and I will not go completely against them.

His work re the Batty Street lodger is a must read.

Monty