Seaside Home?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Lynn,

Watkins, I believe, had been previously disciplined for having sexual intercourse whilst on duty - and kept his job. I am assuming (always risky, but logical sometimes) that Harvey's offence was viewed as worse than that of Watkins, for him to lose his job.

Pure speculation (nothing more): As Harvey arrives at Church Passage, a man emerges carrying a knife and a piece of blood-stained apron. Harvey doesn't challenge him and, aware of the implications, after the murder is discovered, keeps quiet about what he saw. The story later comes to light - belated admission perhaps - & rumours of it circulate for a while. Hence MacNaghten:
"No-one ever saw the Ripper, unless perhaps it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" found in the Lady Aberconway version (MacNaghten's file copy?), but not in the MacNaghten Memoranda in the official files.

"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" is very specific. It doesn't fit Pc Smith on Berner Street, doesn't fit Schwartz, doesn't fit Lawende, but does fit James Harvey. I keep hearing how MacNaghten got it wrong. I simply think we should consider the possibility that he actually got it right.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hello Bridewell,

I'm with you.

I just can't believe that anyone let alone a senior policeman is a slavering idiot who when he says "City PC", he really means the witness in the city police district. Forget the context and ask yourself how likely that is.

What about this for a little theory. Now I know this is far fetched but here goes:

The man and woman seen by Lawende and associates were deliberately standing there to block the entrance - part of a police sting. This may explain the 'only one entrance into the square' and the cul-de-sac. It was a cul-de-sac assuming the other two entrances were watched/blocked. The two men in hiding being Harvey and Morris.

A few holes in there, granted, but I personally think there is mileage in the witness being a City PC.

[Phil Carter]

I miss Gavin Bromley.

I remember our 'chats' re PC beats and our meeting in Wolves back in 2007. A really top bloke who's presence in the field made it such a better place.

Gavin and I did disagree on Harveys times however his opinions are very valid and I will not go completely against them.

His work re the Batty Street lodger is a must read.

Monty

Hello Monty,

A couple of questions if I may?

As I havent got your Rip 109 (correct No.?) re. Harvey, I dont know how long Harvey worked as a warehouse man nor his cause of death. And have you had an indication of any illness that would have given reason to a trip to any rest home at the seaside? Also, have you found any indication that dismissed ex-policemen would be allowed access to any said rest home?
Thanks in advance.

Regards

Phil

[lynn cates]

orders

Hello Mac. I seem to recall an old thread about Mitre sq being a trap on that night.

That might explain Halse's remarks at inquest about that night--given, of course, they were not standard ones.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. I seem to recall an old thread about Mitre sq being a trap on that night.

That might explain Halse's remarks at inquest about that night--given, of course, they were not standard ones.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

And the conclusion must have been they were watching for someone else and Jack just rolled up by chance?

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

Which Warehouse job are you refering to? Before or after his police service?

There was a beneficial charity of sorts for ex policemen but that provided more financial assistance rathers than providing medical/convalesing support. Therefore I see no reason for him to be at the home as a resident.

At the time of the alledged I.D. in 91 he was living at Tower Hamlets Road, West Ham. His daughter was born in nearby Stratford in 89 and he died in 1903, in the West Ham area. It would indicate that he lived in West Ham from 89 to 03.

The reason for death is something, quite ironically, that I'm currently working on so if you are willing to wait a few weeks I can expand on that.

At time of passing, Harvey was marked as a Foreman Dustman.

As noted to Dave, he does have Brighton area connections. As a young man he worked for Shaws Grocers till 75. Its possible, and this is conjecture, that he had relatives in Brighton area and convinience has him there, visiting them, at time of the parade. However, I very much stress that I've no evidence of this.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Which Warehouse job are you refering to? Before or after his police service?

There was a beneficial charity of sorts for ex policemen but that provided more financial assistance rathers than providing medical/convalesing support. Therefore I see no reason for him to be at the home as a resident.

At the time of the alledged I.D. in 91 he was living at Tower Hamlets Road, West Ham. His daughter was born in nearby Stratford in 89 and he died in 1903, in the West Ham area. It would indicate that he lived in West Ham from 89 to 03.

The reason for death is something, quite ironically, that I'm currently working on so if you are willing to wait a few weeks I can expand on that.

At time of passing, Harvey was marked as a Foreman Dustman.



As noted to Dave, he does have Brighton area connections. As a young man he worked for Shaws Grocers till 75. Its possible, and this is conjecture, that he had relatives in Brighton area and convinience has him there, visiting them, at time of the parade. However, I very much stress that I've no evidence of this.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Thanks for the reply. Very helpful.

I meant the job after his dismissal.
I note also his dismissal coming in the same year as the birth of hìs daughter, and wondered, speculatively, if the two are connected (celebrating in a pub, going awol for ex) . He was dismissed 1st July I believe-The birth was?

Of course the c.o.d. work you have in hand can wait.

Many thanks

Phil

[lynn cates]

conclusion

Hello Mac. A conclusion? In Ripperology? (Heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Ashburnham

OMG...

Harvey was born in Ashbourne (or Ashboureham, or something like that, I working from memory here)

Before joining the force Harvey worked in...wait for it....Brighton.

Infact, the City Police asked the Brighton force to obtain a reference from his previous employer.

Also, Harvey lived in Temple Walk, a spit from Druitt at Kings Bench walk. Could this be the sighting?

Its all falling into place.

By the way, Harveys dismissal is noted in the order books, along with numerous others, some of which have their records missing.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I hadn't made the Brighton connection, so top marks for picking up on it (bit annoyed that I didn't see it myself though!)

I think we simply must, by some means find out the reason for Harvey's dismissal. I gather (from recollection it was an article in Ripperologist) that his personal file still exists but that, unusually, the reason for his dismissal is not recorded thereon. Happy to be corrected on that, but that was my understanding.

According to AA Route Finder Ashburnham is 31.4 miles from Brighton btw.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

I still find it odd that two of the policemen who gave evidence at the Eddowes inquest were both dismissed same month same year.

[Phil Carter]

I still find it odd that two of the policemen who gave evidence at the Eddowes inquest were both dismissed same month same year.

Hello Robert,

A theorist's dream set up! Until anything else is found- it will just be an oddity.

Kind wishes

Phil

[Robert]

Hi Phil

I don't know how common it is for a reason for dismissal to be absent from the record. If it is very uncommon, then it would be suggestive. But if the authorities were trying to keep something hidden, wouldn't they just invent a reason for the record?

Remember "John Drake"? I think he had Harvey in the frame.

Samsonite briefcase!

[Monty]

PC Records

Hi,

Its not unusual for records to be missing or part missing.

Its happened with quite a few Bobbies and is down to a combination of poor record maintenence, deterioration, space and yes, the blitz.

Monty


PS - My experience for those dismissed for serious offences, is that Henry Smiths scrawl in red ink appears.

[Robert]

Thanks Monty.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

What are the worst reasons you have seen from this period? I just wondered where the line was drawn for actually recording the fact, if any?

Regards

Phil

[Robert]

Sacked for being Jack the Ripper while on duty would probably be the worst.