Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Picking up on NW's thoughts about the victims having something in common. They are often portrayed as feckless types, somewhat lovelorn, putting themselves at risk. But the evidence points away from this. Jemima McDonald was a regular patron of the Barrowland and according to police inquiries had a number of friends and casual acquaintances there so she would have felt quite secure. This is even more the case with Helen Puttock who started out the evening in the company of her sister and a few friends. The thing they had in common was a love of dancing and a sense of belonging to the same social scene. These were not quite the naive, lonely victims falling into the clutches of BJ that we can sometimes imagine they were. Jemima McDonald even waved to a neighbour as she stood talking with her killer outside the property where she was murdered. Helen Puttock was quite confident she would be taken back home safely after her sister was dropped off.

Regarding the John Templeton theory and route home, he must have been walking the streets of Glasgow for over an hour either end of his late night bus trip. The streets would be deserted for the most part from 2am onwards but that also means anyone out and about would catch attention from a passing car or pedestrian. Apart from the bus sighting there does not seem to be any witness to this suspicious character being seen anywhere on the streets.

Again, I agree with you Cobalt.

That's largely why I lean towards a west end culprit and favour the idea that he may have cut through Kelvingrove Park.

Unless of course it was indeed McInnes using his relativr's flat as a convenient crash pad.

I think the portrayal of the victims as either scarlet women or poor, feckless lonely souls is just representative of the generalised misogyny of the era.

I'm sure they were just girls who loved dancing and were looking for a bit of fun and respite from the daily grind.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ironically the attitude of the police in some ways mirrored Bible John’s. To them they were ‘scarlet women.’ They either felt that just dancing with different men was an act of promiscuity in itself or that dancing naturally led to sex. As if they were looking for sex rather than just fun. They may have been hoping to meet Mr. Right but that doesn’t mean that they were working their way through all of the Barrowland men. And of course, if sex did occasionally become a part of their fun..so what? The young men would have received a free pass on this kind of behaviour of course.

[cobalt]

Picking up on NW's thoughts about the victims having something in common. They are often portrayed as feckless types, somewhat lovelorn, putting themselves at risk. But the evidence points away from this. Jemima McDonald was a regular patron of the Barrowland and according to police inquiries had a number of friends and casual acquaintances there so she would have felt quite secure. This is even more the case with Helen Puttock who started out the evening in the company of her sister and a few friends. The thing they had in common was a love of dancing and a sense of belonging to the same social scene. These were not quite the naive, lonely victims falling into the clutches of BJ that we can sometimes imagine they were. Jemima McDonald even waved to a neighbour as she stood talking with her killer outside the property where she was murdered. Helen Puttock was quite confident she would be taken back home safely after her sister was dropped off.

Regarding the John Templeton theory and route home, he must have been walking the streets of Glasgow for over an hour either end of his late night bus trip. The streets would be deserted for the most part from 2am onwards but that also means anyone out and about would catch attention from a passing car or pedestrian. Apart from the bus sighting there does not seem to be any witness to this suspicious character being seen anywhere on the streets.

[Ms Diddles]

That one is on there. I just looked at some of the stills. I wonder if there are any older ones though that might capture some of the locations?

Nah, sadly not.

I had a good trawl through all of the Scottish locations and couldn't find anything showing Glasgow in the right era.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is an interesting photo of Joe Beattie in the incident room.
What is interesting is that there are some photo-fits of Bible John that I hadn't seen before.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excellent photograph showing the building where Jemima MacDonald's body was found.
Once again, it is noticeable just how much risk the killer was taking in committing murder in such a closely built up area.

I don't think it has been uploaded before.

I am still trying to locate other photos of Mackeith Street.

I don’t think that the photo has been uploaded here before Barn so thanks for doing that.

I wonder if those kids at the bottom right are some of the ones that found the body?

If that crime had happened today we would have had mobile phone photos galore of the crime scene and the environs.


Thanks for posting the two maps too Barn. It’s good to get an idea of the locations especially for someone who has no knowledge of Glasgow geography.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is the route that John McInnes, would in all likelihood have taken to get to his Uncle and Aunts house at 204 Berkeley Street, if he was the dishevelled man seen getting off the Number 6 bus at Gray Street.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Gray+St,+Glasgow/204+Berkeley+St.,+Finnieston,+Glasgow+G3+7JB/@55.8655609,-4.2863338,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x488845d470a6e505:0x8176da8dac40d836!2m2!1d-4.2866407!2d55.8665765!1m5!1m1!1s0x4888442b2f9dcd45:0x8b5cb0433fb847f9!2m2!1d-4.2807297!2d55.8650086!3e2?entry=ttu

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is the route that John Templeton, would in all likelihood have taken to get home, if he was the dishevelled man seen getting off the Number 6 bus at Gray Street.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Gray+St,+Glasgow/Melrose+Gardens,+Glasgow/@55.8728174,-4.2922074,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x488845d470a6e505:0x8176da8dac40d836!2m2!1d-4.2866407!2d55.8665765!1m5!1m1!1s0x4888443401909a55:0x92db22e8f11beba0!2m2!1d-4.2765689!2d55.879035!3e2?entry=ttu

[barnflatwyngarde]

Excellent photograph showing the building where Jemima MacDonald's body was found.
Once again, it is noticeable just how much risk the killer was taking in committing murder in such a closely built up area.

I don't think it has been uploaded before.

I am still trying to locate other photos of Mackeith Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Legend of Barney Thomson is a good one.

The Barrowlands and surrounding area feature, as well as some Bridgeton spots close to Mackeith St.

I haven't seen the film, but I remember some streets being closed when they were shooting and hearing that Emma Thompson was in town.

That one is on there. I just looked at some of the stills. I wonder if there are any older ones though that might capture some of the locations?

[Ms Diddles]

Or asked him if he wanted to go dancing.

[Ms Diddles]

Neither did I. It’s a great site though. I wonder if there are any old films set in Glasgow which might show footage of some relevant BJ locations?

The Legend of Barney Thomson is a good one.

The Barrowlands and surrounding area feature, as well as some Bridgeton spots close to Mackeith St.

I haven't seen the film, but I remember some streets being closed when they were shooting and hearing that Emma Thompson was in town.

[barnflatwyngarde]

If only you had asked him which team he supported, eh Barn?!

Or asked him if he wanted to go dancing.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Casual misogyny is certainly a feature of these police documents, a world where a woman who 'likes male company' (don't most women?) segues into 'promiscuity.' The blanket statement about the Gowan sisters- that 'all three are promiscuous' - can hardly have been thoroughly checked for accuracy. The character of the women is constantly implied by attributing two possible surnames by which they were known; this was a legal nicety used in sheriff courts when sentencing prostitutes and carried a serious social stigma at the time. The tabloid newspaper equivalent at the time was 'attractive divorcee.'

No doubt the police could claim they were seeking to avoid ambiguity by referencing these names, just as referencing that some had children to more one father might be some sort of motive for their murder. But it does not read like that today and I doubt it did at the time. Jemima McDonald had three children and we are offered the less than crucial information that one father was a Yugoslav whilst another was from the Caribbean. The third child's father was presumably a Glaswegian so he is not deemed worthy of mention- although unlike the others he was most likely still living in the area! This casual racism includes mention of Patricia Docker having 'affairs with Greek Cypriots' whilst in Cypress.

So I can see why Audrey Gillan is highlighting the social lens through which the murders were investigated, and how it may have hindered the inquiry. After all, none of these women were killed by a 'foreigner.' Everything points to their having met their death at the hands of a fellow Glaswegian. And if they were as free with their favours as the police believed, that was surely not the reason they were killed: they were killed because they refused the sexual advances of a sexual maniac, not because they welcomed his advances.

Very good post cobalt.

It echoes my sentiments entirely.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Flash Gordon was filmed in the Highlands??!!!!

I had no idea!!

Neither did I. It’s a great site though. I wonder if there are any old films set in Glasgow which might show footage of some relevant BJ locations?