Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thank you Herlock for relooking at the leaving of the taxi and paying the fare part of this.

I am off on a tangent again and perhaps stating the bl..dy obvious. But the police did have details of McInnes's teeth. They must have seen them when the senior officers spoke with him shortly after the murder of Helen.

This is another part of the mystery. We have Beattie sitting in his office with a mold of the offenders teeth, and McInnes apparently speaking with police who were very able to look at his front teeth and the area of the missing tooth at that time by simply asking him to open his mouth.

There seemed to be no problem in examining George Puttocks body for defense wounds at the time.

Perhaps they were keeping the bite marks evidence from him sort of not playing all their cards at once

All very odd

NW

There’s plenty of inexplicables in this case NW and some of it can’t fail to lead some to conclude that the police might have been keen to cover something up (whether that was actually the case or not) Perhaps it could be said that even if McInnes’s teeth had matched the description given by Jean it might have been suggested that many men might have had front teeth that crossed slightly? The suggestion from the podcast is that Jean never actually saw McInnes which is almost impossible to explain without a sinister explanation. So we have the police clearly looking for John Irvine McInnes no more than 48 hours after Helen’s body was found. McInnes’s own cousin said that this was because of a Moylan’s card found at the crime scene. How can he not have been put in front of Jean? She is THE witness in the case.

Another possible explanation might have been (and I’m taking into consideration that DI Johnston had been told by a fellow detective officer that Jean had said that she wasn’t sure how much help she could be as a witness because of how drunk she’d been - something that she later denied) that maybe Jean saw McInnes but couldn’t pick him out?

[Ms Diddles]

Ms D, I agree with you that apart from the security entry doors, and the tidying up of the back court, nothing much would have changed.
In a previous life, long ago, I was in charge of Bridgeton, Whiteinch and Langside libraries, all very close to the murder scenes,and not once did it ever occur to me to take photos of the crime scenes.
Doh!

If I'm not mistaken the original tenements on Mackeith Street are long since bulldozed, but Carmichael Lane and Earl St are pretty much as was.

It's a shame you didn't have the foresight to grab some pics when you had the opportunity.

Same with me when I was out at Earl St on a regular basis!

I was aware of the history, but just didn't think to do so!

[New Waterloo]

Thank you Herlock for relooking at the leaving of the taxi and paying the fare part of this.

I am off on a tangent again and perhaps stating the bl..dy obvious. But the police did have details of McInnes's teeth. They must have seen them when the senior officers spoke with him shortly after the murder of Helen.

This is another part of the mystery. We have Beattie sitting in his office with a mold of the offenders teeth, and McInnes apparently speaking with police who were very able to look at his front teeth and the area of the missing tooth at that time by simply asking him to open his mouth.

There seemed to be no problem in examining George Puttocks body for defense wounds at the time.

Perhaps they were keeping the bite marks evidence from him sort of not playing all their cards at once

All very odd

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Barn may feel otherwise but I actually think that these locations will have changed very little in the intervening years.

I'm quite familiar with Earl St and Harland Cottages (as well as the Yoker end of Dumbarton Rd where John Templeton lived with his foster family) as I used to manage flats in these locations for many years.

I've been in the back courts of Earl St (though never number 95) and other than security doors on the closes and indoor toilets, they remain the same as in 1969.

Harland Cottages is now quite dilapidated and riddled with damp, but it does feel quite like stepping back in time there.

I hear you about wanting to see more pics from '69 though.

I guess I could get some pals to wear flares and beehives, and take some pics in black and white!

Worth a try.

You could find out where Audrey Gillan lives and invite yourself over for tea. Then drive over to Earl Street with her and ask her to clarify what she thinks happened and how it could possibly have tied in with the MacDonald sighting. I’m sure that we would all appreciate your efforts.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well, Barn may feel otherwise but I actually think that these locations will have changed very little in the intervening years.

I'm quite familiar with Earl St and Harland Cottages (as well as the Yoker end of Dumbarton Rd where John Templeton lived with his foster family) as I used to manage flats in these locations for many years.

I've been in the back courts of Earl St (though never number 95) and other than security doors on the closes and indoor toilets, they remain the same as in 1969.

Harland Cottages is now quite dilapidated and riddled with damp, but it does feel quite like stepping back in time there.

I hear you about wanting to see more pics from '69 though.

I guess I could get some pals to wear flares and beehives, and take some pics in black and white!

Ms D, I agree with you that apart from the security entry doors, and the tidying up of the back court, nothing much would have changed.
In a previous life, long ago, I was in charge of Bridgeton, Whiteinch and Langside libraries, all very close to the murder scenes,and not once did it ever occur to me to take photos of the crime scenes.
Doh!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wow, that's an absolute doozy!

When McInnes died he had dentures, and it is widely reported that no trace of any dental records had been found.
So how on earth can anyone say that Odontology suggests that McInnes bit Helen Puttock?

For the journalist to say this, the information must have come from a police source.

This damn case just keeps on throwing up surprises and questions.

I get the impression that this might just have been sloppy reporting though Barn. They certainly knew that Helen had been bitten but they couldn’t determine if it was by McInnes because he had dentures (as you say). I think they might have just carelessly moved from - someone bit her but we can’t prove who, to - they know that McInnes bit her but they can’t prove it.

[Ms Diddles]

Thanks for the offer Ms D. To be honest it’s mainly a wish that there was more footage/photographs from the time. Failing that, footage/photographs from later when the locations hadn’t changed. I’d certainly like to have seen behind number 95 Earl Street as it was.

Well, Barn may feel otherwise but I actually think that these locations will have changed very little in the intervening years.

I'm quite familiar with Earl St and Harland Cottages (as well as the Yoker end of Dumbarton Rd where John Templeton lived with his foster family) as I used to manage flats in these locations for many years.

I've been in the back courts of Earl St (though never number 95) and other than security doors on the closes and indoor toilets, they remain the same as in 1969.

Harland Cottages is now quite dilapidated and riddled with damp, but it does feel quite like stepping back in time there.

I hear you about wanting to see more pics from '69 though.

I guess I could get some pals to wear flares and beehives, and take some pics in black and white!

[cobalt]

Hi NW,

It would be helpful to have a transcript of Hannah, the taxi driver's, police statement.

My reading of the situation is that when the taxi reached Earl Street BJ was moaning about the fare, and that Helen gave him some silver as her contribution - on the assumption he was about to head off home. As she left the cab, BJ used her coins to make up the cost of the hire which he gave to the driver through the sliding glass window, then left the cab himself to join up with Helen.

I'm assuming the taxi was a traditional black cab if it picked the trio up from a rank near Glasgow city centre. You don't hear much in the way of conversation as a driver in these vehicles since the sliding glass window is normally kept shut and the engines were noisier back then.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock and Cobalt. A point you both made has got me thinking and perhaps there is a discrepancy in the taxi drivers (Hannah) evidence. I may be mistaken but I thought the Blog suggests that the taxi was paid for by by Helen whilst still inside the cab, reaching to pay the driver. Later George Puttock states that Hannah said there was a separation between Helen and BJ with him sort of going after Helen. In other words Helen leaving the taxi first. This would seem to suggest BJ paid the fair.

If I get a taxi with my wife and I pay. She leaves the taxi and I settle the driver.

I will need to read this again as I am confusing myself but there seems a bit of confusion. Not sure if it means anything though.

NW

Hi NW,

I just had a quick look for the relevant part in my notes but I couldn’t find them. I’ll have a closer look either later or tomorrow but from recent memory - according to Hannah (via George Puttock) someone asked the price of the fair and he told them it was £1 6d. He then saw BJ talk to Helen and she reached into her bag and gave him some money which he in turn gave to Hannah. Hannah then saw them get out and stand together on the pavement believing that they were having some kind of ‘disagreement.’

[barnflatwyngarde]

Bible John DNA Test Negative

https://stvfootagesales.tv/content/bible-john-dna-tests-negative/

Geoff Brown - Crime Correspondant:

“More promising perhaps in that department the Odontology which seemed to suggest that John McInnes certainly bit Helen Puttock….”

Where did he get that from?

Wow, that's an absolute doozy!

When McInnes died he had dentures, and it is widely reported that no trace of any dental records had been found.
So how on earth can anyone say that Odontology suggests that McInnes bit Helen Puttock?

For the journalist to say this, the information must have come from a police source.

This damn case just keeps on throwing up surprises and questions.

[Ms Diddles]

According to Jeannie, BJ was familiar with pubs in the Yoker area which is opposite the ferry crossing from Renfrew, just north of the Clyde near where Jeannie lived. This I think- but has to be confirmed- is where a BJ suspect was spotted on a late night bus around 2am. One report states he left the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road- a main thoroughfare out of the city- and Gray Steet: but I can't find a Gray Street near the Yoker/Renfrew ferry crossing. In fact the only Gray Street I can find is nowhere near either Dumbarton Road or the River Clyde so I assume it is a mistake.

(Just to complicate matters, the Yoker/Renfrew crossing is within a few minutes from where Jeannie was dropped off prior to the taxi doubling back to Earl Street. If escaping over the River Clyde was to be BJ's MO, then he probably chose the wrong victim.)

The description given of the BJ suspect on the bus tallied with that given by Jeannie. In addition he was dishevelled, had mud on his clothing and a red mark under one eye. He also seemed to have a loose shirt sleeve under his jacket which might link with a cuff link left at the scene of Helen's murder.

The question I would like answered is how many of the following were actually asked to ID the suspect John McInnes in a line up:

Jeannie Langford
Barrowland bouncer
Barrowland manager
Patrons of Barrowland in vicinity of the foursome
William Hannah, taxi driver
Late night bus driver
Late night bus conductor
Any passengers on late night bus

Hi Cobalt,

I think the Gray St in question is the one just off Sauchiehall St right at Kelvingrove Park.

My understanding of it is that police had proposed that BJ alighted here in order to catch the early morning Kelvinhaugh ferry to Govan, which was just a short walk from Gray St down Kelvinhaugh St to the Clyde.

The Yoker ferry was in the opposite direction from Earl St (ie west).

http://www.gerryblaikie.com/railways/ferries.htm

https://www.theglasgowstory.com/image/?inum=TGSE01450

Dumbarton Rd splits into two main thoroughfares at Kelvingrove (Sauchiehall St and Argyle St).

Gray St is right off Sauchiehall St, so it could be mistaken for a continuation of Dumbarton Rd to the uninitiated.

Agree, I would love to know who from your list above were asked to ID McInnes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for all the digging, Herlock.

Some of those old STV clips take me back!

What is it in relation to the locations that you would specifically like to see?

If I have time over the next couple of weeks it's easy enough for me to pop out, record some footage and post it.

Thanks for the offer Ms D. To be honest it’s mainly a wish that there was more footage/photographs from the time. Failing that, footage/photographs from later when the locations hadn’t changed. I’d certainly like to have seen behind number 95 Earl Street as it was.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock and Cobalt. A point you both made has got me thinking and perhaps there is a discrepancy in the taxi drivers (Hannah) evidence. I may be mistaken but I thought the Blog suggests that the taxi was paid for by by Helen whilst still inside the cab, reaching to pay the driver. Later George Puttock states that Hannah said there was a separation between Helen and BJ with him sort of going after Helen. In other words Helen leaving the taxi first. This would seem to suggest BJ paid the fair.

If I get a taxi with my wife and I pay. She leaves the taxi and I settle the driver.

I will need to read this again as I am confusing myself but there seems a bit of confusion. Not sure if it means anything though.

NW

[Ms Diddles]

There is. It’s a pity that the one about the locations wasn’t more detailed though. It was interesting to hear in the Creation Of Bible John one from Johnstone that Beattie appears to have taken him up on his suggestion to subject Jean to hypnosis. I was under the impression that his suggestion had been dismissed.

Thanks for all the digging, Herlock.

Some of those old STV clips take me back!

What is it in relation to the locations that you would specifically like to see?

If I have time over the next couple of weeks it's easy enough for me to pop out, record some footage and post it.

[Ms Diddles]

Bible John DNA Test Negative

https://stvfootagesales.tv/content/bible-john-dna-tests-negative/

Geoff Brown - Crime Correspondant:

“More promising perhaps in that department the Odontology which seemed to suggest that John McInnes certainly bit Helen Puttock….”

Where did he get that from?

I've no idea!

That's just bizarre!