Bible John (General Discussion)

[barnflatwyngarde]

I attach a couple of pages from official documents relating to the three victims Pat Docker, Jemima MacDonald and Helen Puttock.
These are clearly some of the documents referenced by Audrey Gillan in her podcast.

Some text is tricky to make out, and I think it is clearer on the initial web page (link attached)

What is striking is the casual misogyny on display.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-63916850

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barn,

So just to be clear (as my question might not have been) Jean could have heard the accent of someone from Stonehouse and taken it for a local Glasgow one.

Oh yes, absolutely!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock!

I live 11 miles away from Stonehouse, and no, there would be no noticeable twang to anyone from Stonehouse.

Stonehouse is within 10 miles of the towns of Hamilton, Carluke and Motherwell, so while it is in the countryside it is very close to large towns where I would expect many Stonehouse residents to work.

Thanks Barn,

So just to be clear (as my question might not have been) Jean could have heard the accent of someone from Stonehouse and taken it for a local Glasgow one.

[barnflatwyngarde]

A question for our Scottish contingent To a Scot how individual would someone from McInnes’s geographical background been? Would a fellow Scot, like Jean, have detected a local accent?

Hi Herlock!

I live 11 miles away from Stonehouse, and no, there would be no noticeable twang to anyone from Stonehouse.

Stonehouse is within 10 miles of the towns of Hamilton, Carluke and Motherwell, so while it is in the countryside it is very close to large towns where I would expect many Stonehouse residents to work.

[Ms Diddles]

A couple of observations which I don't think are going to help much but which may stimulate our brains. (I am beginning to scrape the barrel so to speak)

I think Cobalt you make an important observation when coupled with all the other posters comments related to BJ being 'a cut above the rest' or shall we say slightly higher social class, when BJ says the 'joke' about being 'agnostic'. It is very good and works for people with the knowledge of both the term and the situation relating to the two main football teams in Glasgow with one predominantly having a catholic support the other a Protestant support. Yes quite amusing. Was and is it a popular Glasgow joke saying?

Also I have been thinking about whether there is any link between the 3 victims. Well of course Barrowland. Also there is I suppose a certain similarity to how they looked. Its hard to say with black and white photos but they all appear to have dark hair, similar build maybe, smartly dressed and finally having had or experiencing marital/relationship problems.

I suppose I am thin ice here a bit but non of the victims appear to have been in stable relationships but there must have been many who went to the Barrowland who were but did not end up being murdered. Is there some connection here to the offender

NW

Hi NW!

Over the years I have heard many jokes and quips about Glasgow football, but the "agnostic" one is completely new to me.

I agree that it was very perceptive of Cobalt to point out its significance.

I hadn't given it much thought previously, but on consideration it's quite a revealing comment.

[Ms Diddles]

A question for our Scottish contingent To a Scot how individual would someone from McInnes’s geographical background been? Would a fellow Scot, like Jean, have detected a local accent?

I was wondering that too.

Barn is probably better placed to answer this than me, but my guess would be that a Stonehouse accent would be pretty indistinguishable from a Glasgow one.

It might sound a little softer than the harsh dialects spoken in the schemes, but I think it would likely sound generic Glasgow.

I certainly couldn't tell the difference between Glasweigan and other outlying towns (Paisley, East Kilbride, Airdrie etc).

[Ms Diddles]

It’s this site Ms D

https://www.reelstreets.com/films/sparrows-cant-sing-2/

It’s brilliant.

Thanks Herlock!

Much appreciated!

I'll have a poke about when I'm home from work.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A question for our Scottish contingent To a Scot how individual would someone from McInnes’s geographical background been? Would a fellow Scot, like Jean, have detected a local accent?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The fact that they were all menstruating seems important NW? Especially given the where Helen Puttock’s sanitary towel was found.

[New Waterloo]

A couple of observations which I don't think are going to help much but which may stimulate our brains. (I am beginning to scrape the barrel so to speak)

I think Cobalt you make an important observation when coupled with all the other posters comments related to BJ being 'a cut above the rest' or shall we say slightly higher social class, when BJ says the 'joke' about being 'agnostic'. It is very good and works for people with the knowledge of both the term and the situation relating to the two main football teams in Glasgow with one predominantly having a catholic support the other a Protestant support. Yes quite amusing. Was and is it a popular Glasgow joke saying?

Also I have been thinking about whether there is any link between the 3 victims. Well of course Barrowland. Also there is I suppose a certain similarity to how they looked. Its hard to say with black and white photos but they all appear to have dark hair, similar build maybe, smartly dressed and finally having had or experiencing marital/relationship problems.

I suppose I am thin ice here a bit but non of the victims appear to have been in stable relationships but there must have been many who went to the Barrowland who were but did not end up being murdered. Is there some connection here to the offender

NW

[cobalt]

Stereotyping might provide an answer to Mrs D's query: why did the police think that a sex murderer frequenting the Barrowland might be from the Govan area rather than Kelvinside.

The case against McInnes has been well laid out here and there must have been problems with the initial inquiry otherwise his body would not have been exhumed many years later. Perhaps a false alibi, or a failure for him to be picked out on an ID parade? (If he was ever really put on one.) The possibility of police corruption has also been raised.

But if McInnes was BJ then he must have covered by a friend or family since on at least two occasions he 'stopped over 'in Glasgow a woman was murdered. (The Patricia Docker murder is disputed as a BJ crime and we do not know when it took place.) Abusing hospitality doesn't get more severe than that. We don't know how McInnes spoke but a resident of a small Scottish village in central Scotland would not survive long speaking with an affected accent. His work as a furniture salesman might require a slightly more polished form of diction, so maybe McInnes could switch registers according to company. But speaking a bit posh in the Barrowland does not sound like a good idea if you can deliver your 'patter' in the local vernacular.

Perhaps McInnes is as big a red herring as we suspect the Govan Ferry is. BJ was maybe a slightly posh bloke from Kelvinside who'd attended Hillhead Academy and had, as he claimed, once worked in a laboratory- Glasgow University is in that area. Because he patronised the Barrowland Ballroom and picked up women of a low social class the police assumed BJ was from the victims' social milieu. Detective Beattie once said: 'We missed him from the start.'

[barnflatwyngarde]

I agree.

I suppose it could just be that he "had ideas above his station" and affected a more well-heeled persona.

Without knowing more about him as a person, I'm not sure how likely that is though.

Well, I know that John Templeton was always very polite, always very well turned out and certainly spoke in a way that you wouldn't normally expect from an attendant.

Apologies if the above comment smacks slightly of social stereotyping.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry, Herlock!

I must have missed that.

Where do you mean by "main threads"?

I'll have a look for it.

It’s this site Ms D

https://www.reelstreets.com/films/sparrows-cant-sing-2/

It’s brilliant.

[Ms Diddles]

Much obliged to Mrs D for her comprehensive knowledge of the Clyde ferries! It has been a great help to me in nailing down parts of the case that had been vague in my mind over the years.

You're welcome.

I'm glad to have been of assistance!

I just found a couple of interesting sites which documented the history of the various ferries.

Basically, you were right.

Once the Clyde Tunnel opened most of the ferries became obsolete.

Does anyone know why it was that the police had such a bee in their bonnet about BJ trying to make his way to Govan after the Helen Puttock murder?

If we're all agreeing that the evidence points more towards him making for the west end, there must presumably have been some reason for this supposition carrying so much weight for them at the time.


I agree with Barn and Mrs D that the ferry theory seems to be a red herring. Coincidentally, my thoughts on reading the previous post were exactly the same as what Mrs D has just written: that the area BJ left the bus suggests he was headed for what was (and probably still is?) regarded as the posher part of Glasgow. The area 'Kelvinside' was often used as comic shorthand for pretentiousness back in the heyday of Rikki Fulton.

Yes, there's a certain old school Kelvinside / Bearsden accent here that always makes me think of the Glasgow equivalent of Maggie Smith in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie!

It's quite distinctive and sounds slightly affected.

This ties in with BJ's taxi remark about him being an 'agnostic.' It's a slightly educated term and they way he used it was rather witty, since he was cross referencing religious belief with support for the two main Glasgow football teams. BJ being well spoken is also IIRC a feature of more than one witness. His neat demeanour and formal dress were also noted.

Yes, thinking about it that "agnostic" witticism is quite interesting.

It's a bit cleverer than your average Old Firm humour, and makes me feel he was perhaps a bit of a smart-arse!

I'd bet that this would likely have been a well-used stock response for him trotted out whenever anyone asked which team he supported.

It'd be interesting if anyone remembered an old family member/friend/colleague/neighbour who used that line!

However none of this last paragraph really points to John McInnes from what we know.

I agree.

I suppose it could just be that he "had ideas above his station" and affected a more well-heeled persona.

Without knowing more about him as a person, I'm not sure how likely that is though.

[Ms Diddles]

Did you see that site that I posted a link to on the main threads? It showed scenes from movies with ‘then and now’ photos.

Sorry, Herlock!

I must have missed that.

Where do you mean by "main threads"?

I'll have a look for it.