Bible John (General Discussion)

[New Waterloo]

A couple of observations which I don't think are going to help much but which may stimulate our brains. (I am beginning to scrape the barrel so to speak)

I think Cobalt you make an important observation when coupled with all the other posters comments related to BJ being 'a cut above the rest' or shall we say slightly higher social class, when BJ says the 'joke' about being 'agnostic'. It is very good and works for people with the knowledge of both the term and the situation relating to the two main football teams in Glasgow with one predominantly having a catholic support the other a Protestant support. Yes quite amusing. Was and is it a popular Glasgow joke saying?

Also I have been thinking about whether there is any link between the 3 victims. Well of course Barrowland. Also there is I suppose a certain similarity to how they looked. Its hard to say with black and white photos but they all appear to have dark hair, similar build maybe, smartly dressed and finally having had or experiencing marital/relationship problems.

I suppose I am thin ice here a bit but non of the victims appear to have been in stable relationships but there must have been many who went to the Barrowland who were but did not end up being murdered. Is there some connection here to the offender

NW

[cobalt]

Stereotyping might provide an answer to Mrs D's query: why did the police think that a sex murderer frequenting the Barrowland might be from the Govan area rather than Kelvinside.

The case against McInnes has been well laid out here and there must have been problems with the initial inquiry otherwise his body would not have been exhumed many years later. Perhaps a false alibi, or a failure for him to be picked out on an ID parade? (If he was ever really put on one.) The possibility of police corruption has also been raised.

But if McInnes was BJ then he must have covered by a friend or family since on at least two occasions he 'stopped over 'in Glasgow a woman was murdered. (The Patricia Docker murder is disputed as a BJ crime and we do not know when it took place.) Abusing hospitality doesn't get more severe than that. We don't know how McInnes spoke but a resident of a small Scottish village in central Scotland would not survive long speaking with an affected accent. His work as a furniture salesman might require a slightly more polished form of diction, so maybe McInnes could switch registers according to company. But speaking a bit posh in the Barrowland does not sound like a good idea if you can deliver your 'patter' in the local vernacular.

Perhaps McInnes is as big a red herring as we suspect the Govan Ferry is. BJ was maybe a slightly posh bloke from Kelvinside who'd attended Hillhead Academy and had, as he claimed, once worked in a laboratory- Glasgow University is in that area. Because he patronised the Barrowland Ballroom and picked up women of a low social class the police assumed BJ was from the victims' social milieu. Detective Beattie once said: 'We missed him from the start.'

[barnflatwyngarde]

I agree.

I suppose it could just be that he "had ideas above his station" and affected a more well-heeled persona.

Without knowing more about him as a person, I'm not sure how likely that is though.

Well, I know that John Templeton was always very polite, always very well turned out and certainly spoke in a way that you wouldn't normally expect from an attendant.

Apologies if the above comment smacks slightly of social stereotyping.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry, Herlock!

I must have missed that.

Where do you mean by "main threads"?

I'll have a look for it.

It’s this site Ms D

https://www.reelstreets.com/films/sparrows-cant-sing-2/

It’s brilliant.

[Ms Diddles]

Much obliged to Mrs D for her comprehensive knowledge of the Clyde ferries! It has been a great help to me in nailing down parts of the case that had been vague in my mind over the years.

You're welcome.

I'm glad to have been of assistance!

I just found a couple of interesting sites which documented the history of the various ferries.

Basically, you were right.

Once the Clyde Tunnel opened most of the ferries became obsolete.

Does anyone know why it was that the police had such a bee in their bonnet about BJ trying to make his way to Govan after the Helen Puttock murder?

If we're all agreeing that the evidence points more towards him making for the west end, there must presumably have been some reason for this supposition carrying so much weight for them at the time.


I agree with Barn and Mrs D that the ferry theory seems to be a red herring. Coincidentally, my thoughts on reading the previous post were exactly the same as what Mrs D has just written: that the area BJ left the bus suggests he was headed for what was (and probably still is?) regarded as the posher part of Glasgow. The area 'Kelvinside' was often used as comic shorthand for pretentiousness back in the heyday of Rikki Fulton.

Yes, there's a certain old school Kelvinside / Bearsden accent here that always makes me think of the Glasgow equivalent of Maggie Smith in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie!

It's quite distinctive and sounds slightly affected.

This ties in with BJ's taxi remark about him being an 'agnostic.' It's a slightly educated term and they way he used it was rather witty, since he was cross referencing religious belief with support for the two main Glasgow football teams. BJ being well spoken is also IIRC a feature of more than one witness. His neat demeanour and formal dress were also noted.

Yes, thinking about it that "agnostic" witticism is quite interesting.

It's a bit cleverer than your average Old Firm humour, and makes me feel he was perhaps a bit of a smart-arse!

I'd bet that this would likely have been a well-used stock response for him trotted out whenever anyone asked which team he supported.

It'd be interesting if anyone remembered an old family member/friend/colleague/neighbour who used that line!

However none of this last paragraph really points to John McInnes from what we know.

I agree.

I suppose it could just be that he "had ideas above his station" and affected a more well-heeled persona.

Without knowing more about him as a person, I'm not sure how likely that is though.

[Ms Diddles]

Did you see that site that I posted a link to on the main threads? It showed scenes from movies with ‘then and now’ photos.

Sorry, Herlock!

I must have missed that.

Where do you mean by "main threads"?

I'll have a look for it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The fact that BJ was described as being well spoken and a "cut above" the rest of the Barrowland punters could imply west end too.

Did you see that site that I posted a link to on the main threads? It showed scenes from movies with ‘then and now’ photos.

[cobalt]

Much obliged to Mrs D for her comprehensive knowledge of the Clyde ferries! It has been a great help to me in nailing down parts of the case that had been vague in my mind over the years.

I agree with Barn and Mrs D that the ferry theory seems to be a red herring. Coincidentally, my thoughts on reading the previous post were exactly the same as what Mrs D has just written: that the area BJ left the bus suggests he was headed for what was (and probably still is?) regarded as the posher part of Glasgow. The area 'Kelvinside' was often used as comic shorthand for pretentiousness back in the heyday of Rikki Fulton.

This ties in with BJ's taxi remark about him being an 'agnostic.' It's a slightly educated term and they way he used it was rather witty, since he was cross referencing religious belief with support for the two main Glasgow football teams. BJ being well spoken is also IIRC a feature of more than one witness. His neat demeanour and formal dress were also noted.

However none of this last paragraph really points to John McInnes from what we know.

[Ms Diddles]

Good post Ms D, I agree with you.

There is no evidence that he was heading for the ferry, and yes, surely the ferrymen would have noticed a dishevelled stranger.
Charing Cross area or the west end seem a logical destination.

The fact that BJ was described as being well spoken and a "cut above" the rest of the Barrowland punters could imply west end too.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Again, I agree that this sighting was significant.

IIRC the ferry staff were questioned and couldn't recall seeing anyone fitting the suspects description.

Looking at the pictures that Herlock posted, the ferry looks pretty small and would presumably have been relatively quiet at 5am.

I find it hard to believe that the boatmen would have failed to notice a tall, slim, dishevelled sandy-haired guy.

I'm really not sure why the police were so persistent in their theory that the suspect was heading for the ferry / trying to get to Govan.

Taking all of the above into account I'm inclined to think that the whole ferry / Southside / Govan thing is a red herring.

To me it seems more plausible that the suspect got off the bus at Gray St because he lived or was staying near there (Templeton, McInnes and anyone else living in that part of the west end at the time!)

As I've mentioned previously Gray St would also be an ideal location if you wanted to cut through Kelvingrove Park / The Kelvin walkway in the dark from where you could access lots of different parts of the west end without hitting any of the main, lit thoroughfares.

Good post Ms D, I agree with you.

There is no evidence that he was heading for the ferry, and yes, surely the ferrymen would have noticed a dishevelled stranger.
Charing Cross area or the west end seem a logical destination.

[Ms Diddles]

I didn’t know that Patrick Marine Police Station used to be used as an exterior in Taggart. I think that the cells may have been used too. It’s no longer a Police Station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/joe90bem/6156153593

I didn't know that either Herlock.

I occasionally like watching old episodes of Taggart just to spot the locations.

I'm always hoping to see one of the flats I've lived in over the years, or one of the pubs I've frequented, but it's never happened yet.

[Ms Diddles]

Mrs D,

Many thanks for the information relating to ferry crossings over the Clyde- it's fascinating social history.
So the BJ suspect on the late night bus- the dishevelled one who resembled the description offered up by Jeannie- was perhaps headed for the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, which ferry would take him over to the Govan area south of the river.

Hi Cobalt,

From what I can see the Kelvinhaugh Ferry would have sailed from Yorkhill Quay to Princes Dock, which I guess we would call Princes Quay now.

It's technically more Cessnock than Govan, but in the same general area.


Was this the best option for a man looking to put clear water between himself and the crime though? According to the historical link there were once three available ferry crossings between Earl Street and the city centre. I have no idea if they were still all operating in 1969 and whether if they did, that included a late night service which the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, near the city centre, obviously did. So I am interested in whether the BJ suspect decided to choose the Kelvinhaugh Crossing since it took him nearer to his destination in Govan, or whether it was the only service still operating. Any help much appreciated.

Well, I suppose it depends on where on the Southside you were trying to get to.

If you were headed to Govan, Linthouse or Cardonald (all southwest) you would be better off going through the Clyde Tunnel walkway as you mentioned.

If you were making for the more central southside, incidentally where Pat Docker was found (Govanhill, Pollokshields, Cathcart etc) the ferry to Princes Dock would maybe be a slightly better option.

The other ferry services heading east towards the city centre from Earl St were:

The Whiteinch Ferry (James St, Whiteinch sailing to Linthouse) which was withdrawn in 1963.

The Meadowside Ferry (Meadowside St, Partick sailing to Holm St in Govan) which was withdrawn Jan 1966.

The Govan Ferry (Ferry Rd, Partick sailing to Water Row, Govan) also withdrawn Jan 1966.

So none were operating in 1969 apart from the Kelvinhaugh one and the Yoker / Renfrew one much further west from Earl St.

The Clyde Tunnel opened in 1963 so was well established by the time of the murders. It became the main route for cars crossing the river although I believe there is a pedestrian walkway available as well. For a person moving eastwards from Earl Street, the Clyde Tunnel is an available option to cross the River Clyde some distance before Gardner Street in Partick, the place where the BJ suspect boarded the bus. So instead of walking 2.5 miles to Gardner Street to catch a bus that dropped him off near Kelvinhaugh Ferry crossing, our BJ suspect could have walked through the Clyde Tunnel and within 3 miles of Earl Street found himself in Govan just as quickly. And as it turned out, maybe attracted less attention as well.

Agree! Unless it was elsewhere on the Southside that he was making for and not Govan.


I think the sighting on the late night bus is a strong lead given its timing, the state of the passenger and the similarity to Jeannie's description. Whether the police tracked that lead down to Berkeley Street or the Govan area we do not know.

Again, I agree that this sighting was significant.

IIRC the ferry staff were questioned and couldn't recall seeing anyone fitting the suspects description.

Looking at the pictures that Herlock posted, the ferry looks pretty small and would presumably have been relatively quiet at 5am.

I find it hard to believe that the boatmen would have failed to notice a tall, slim, dishevelled sandy-haired guy.

I'm really not sure why the police were so persistent in their theory that the suspect was heading for the ferry / trying to get to Govan.

Taking all of the above into account I'm inclined to think that the whole ferry / Southside / Govan thing is a red herring.

To me it seems more plausible that the suspect got off the bus at Gray St because he lived or was staying near there (Templeton, McInnes and anyone else living in that part of the west end at the time!)

As I've mentioned previously Gray St would also be an ideal location if you wanted to cut through Kelvingrove Park / The Kelvin walkway in the dark from where you could access lots of different parts of the west end without hitting any of the main, lit thoroughfares.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Playing around with a way to upload Street View images.
It looks ok at my end, so hopefully the quality will be ok when I post it.

This is the lane at Carmichael Place where Patricia Docker's body was found.
The crime scene is at the far end of the lane.

The other end of the lane is closed off with a wooden fence.
You can zoom in to the lane to get a better view.

The striking thing is that the crime took place in a very populated area.
The risks are obvious!

Cheers Barn. It has the look of being through one of those ‘fish eye’ lenses on my iPad. I don’t know how the photo appears to others. It’s still a good picture though. Thanks for posting it.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Playing around with a way to upload Street View images.
It looks ok at my end, so hopefully the quality will be ok when I post it.

This is the lane at Carmichael Place where Patricia Docker's body was found.
The crime scene is at the far end of the lane.

The other end of the lane is closed off with a wooden fence.
You can zoom in to the lane to get a better view.

The striking thing is that the crime took place in a very populated area.
The risks are obvious!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didn’t know that Patrick Marine Police Station used to be used as an exterior in Taggart. I think that the cells may have been used too. It’s no longer a Police Station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/joe90bem/6156153593