Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I read somewhere that McInnes admitted he had visited the Barrowland so that in itself might not mean much.

The real key point is what account McInnes gave of his movements after leaving the ballroom, particularly between the hours of 1am and 2am. Were the police really able to 'pinpoint' his movements at this time?

I’m not sure if he’d admitted it but this book mentions that when McInnes worked for a US stamp trading firm as a Sales Manager they held weekly sales meetings on Thursday nights (which seems a bit of a strange time for sales meetings) Apparently his boss discovered that the reason that McInnes had missed some meetings was because he’d been to the over 25’s night at the Barrowland. No source is given for this though…as usual.

[barnflatwyngarde]

According to Crow and Samson (page 106) the police had submitted circumstantial evidence to the Procurator Fiscal claiming that McInnes could be pinpointed at key times during the night of Helen’s murder.

So had someone seen him at the Barrowland? We’re experiencing a frustrating lack of detail again.

I'm heading into the Mitchell Library on Saturday to read and take notes from Charles Stoddart's " Bible John: Search for a Sadist".
I'll report back when I've read it.
Stoddart was a high ranking member of the legal profession with several legal textbooks to his name, and he had on the record conversations with Joe Beattie, so hopefully there will be some "treasure".

[cobalt]

I read somewhere that McInnes admitted he had visited the Barrowland so that in itself might not mean much.

The real key point is what account McInnes gave of his movements after leaving the ballroom, particularly between the hours of 1am and 2am. Were the police really able to 'pinpoint' his movements at this time?

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to Crow and Samson (page 106) the police had submitted circumstantial evidence to the Procurator Fiscal claiming that McInnes could be pinpointed at key times during the night of Helen’s murder.

So had someone seen him at the Barrowland? We’re experiencing a frustrating lack of detail again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Quite often on Casebook I’m the one arguing against people when they say ‘that couldn’t be a coincidence’ because coincidences happen every minute of every day and many of them appear remote. That said, I’m not suggesting that this was anything more than a coincidence but it’s an interesting one and one that I hadn’t seen pointed out before until I read Crow and Samson…

Helen Puttock’s sanitary towel was stuffed into her armpit, which seems strange.

Has anyone ever heard of anyone else committing suicide by slicing the main artery under their armpit?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah, entirely superfluous and fictitious "scene setting".

Another one for your barbecue list!

I hadn’t thought of that Ms D. On it goes.

[Ms Diddles]

I’ve put the book that I’m currently reading on hold to read the Crow and Samson book which arrived today. It’s only a slim book so I may finish it in one go. There’s one thing about it that irritates anlready and it’s something that irritates when it occurs in any book. When talking about Helen Puttock the chapter begins “Helen Puttock cursed under her breath. She couldn’t find her favourite crimson lipstick. Her right hand danced across the dressing table, searching frantically for her make-up bag”

You can see what I mean. I really hate it when authors writing factual books do this. All that it does is make you think ‘ok, so what else are you inventing just to pad out the story or to make it more interesting?’ I’m definitely not writing off the book but it doesn’t help.

Yeah, entirely superfluous and fictitious "scene setting".

Another one for your barbecue list!

[barnflatwyngarde]

I’ve put the book that I’m currently reading on hold to read the Crow and Samson book which arrived today. It’s only a slim book so I may finish it in one go. There’s one thing about it that irritates anlready and it’s something that irritates when it occurs in any book. When talking about Helen Puttock the chapter begins “Helen Puttock cursed under her breath. She couldn’t find her favourite crimson lipstick. Her right hand danced across the dressing table, searching frantically for her make-up bag”

You can see what I mean. I really hate it when authors writing factual books do this. All that it does is make you think ‘ok, so what else are you inventing just to pad out the story or to make it more interesting?’ I’m definitely not writing off the book but it doesn’t help.

Agreed Herlock.
Once you go down the road of inventing dialogue and thoughts, it tends not to end well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve put the book that I’m currently reading on hold to read the Crow and Samson book which arrived today. It’s only a slim book so I may finish it in one go. There’s one thing about it that irritates anlready and it’s something that irritates when it occurs in any book. When talking about Helen Puttock the chapter begins “Helen Puttock cursed under her breath. She couldn’t find her favourite crimson lipstick. Her right hand danced across the dressing table, searching frantically for her make-up bag”

You can see what I mean. I really hate it when authors writing factual books do this. All that it does is make you think ‘ok, so what else are you inventing just to pad out the story or to make it more interesting?’ I’m definitely not writing off the book but it doesn’t help.

[Ms Diddles]

Amazing!

Thanks so much for that veritable smorgasbord of information, Barn.

That's much appreciated.

I will certainly check out the Mitchell's Glasgow Room and also the links to the SMT sites that you've kindly included.

I'd thought about the Transport Museum myself.

It's a long time since I've been there, but I seem to remember it was quite an interesting way to spend a rainy afternoon.

Thanks again for your help.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Ms D, you might also want to try Glasgow Riverside Museum of Transport.

https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/museums/venues/riverside-museum

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here's a question for you Barn in your capacity as our local library expert;

I'm trying to find some Glasgow Corporation bus timetables from 1969 (just an idea I'm playing around with).

Do you think the Mitchell would have anything like this?

I found ones online for 1967 and 1970, but you have to pay for them, and I'm not convinced they would contain all the details I'm looking for so don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

Hi Ms D, I would suggest that you make the Mitchell Library your first port of call, specifically the Glasgow Room.

I never worked in the Glasgow Room, I was in the Arts Department, but their collection of all things Glaswegian is comprehensive.

https://libcat.csglasgow.org/web/arena/glasgow-collection

If you have no luck there, I would suggest checking Glasgow Archives, also based in the Mitchell Library.

https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/venues/the-mitchell-library/city-archives

You can phone the Mitchell with any enquiries, they still get a high percentage of enquiries via the phone.

You can also try the National Library of Scotland

https://www.nls.uk/

I also include a link to a site on the history of the SMT Bus Company, and a link to a route map that covers Stonehouse.

http://www.centralsmt.co.uk/default.html

http://www.centralsmt.co.uk/Routes/Territory.html

My recollection is that Glasgow and Greater Glasgow were covered by Corporation buses, the yellow and green ones.
Beyond Glasgow was covered, in my area a least, by the SMT buses, the red ones.

I hope some of this helps, good luck!

[cobalt]

Ms D,

Great minds think alike, but fools....

The last bus from Glasgow to Stonehouse area was something that I had considered myself. Maybe at weekends there was a later service. I estimated that the last bus would be nearer to 11 o'clock than midnight (remember Scottish bars closed at 10pm in these days) but maybe Friday and Saturday would be later due to dance halls closing at 12 o'clock.

The ferry crossing theory considered by the police remains explained. Maybe it was part of their mindset: the Peter Manuel killing of the Watt family circa 1956 was originally pinned on the husband who it was claimed had been seen crossing the Yoker/Renfrew ferry with his car. The ferry witness then became a little hesitant and Watt was released. If Watt had returned to kill his family and driven back to his holiday retreat the ferry would not have been the fastest route anyway, over and above the problem of being remembered in the early hours of the morning. Yet for two months Watt was held in Barlinnie Prison on this theory.

I don't think data protection existed as a problem in 1969. The senior police detectives were certainly on a mission when they descended on Hamilton police station but whether that mission was accomplished or aborted we don't know. I think the latter, probably on the basis of an apparently cast iron alibi being presented.

[Ms Diddles]

I’m the same tbh. I can’t see them protecting a serial killer so maybe they didn’t think that he was guilty but they still wanted to keep his name out of it? It’s clear that we need more info though.

This is awfully vague and I haven't really thought it through, but it occurred to me they could be covering up something but nothing as significant as McInnes' guilt.

Some stupid mistake or data breach by one of the senior officers, some crucial missed opportunity, I don't know.

You're right that there are signs of something fishy going on, but I just don't believe that they would let a guy who had murdered three women (and could kill again) walk, simply because his cousin was a senior officer and pal of Joe Beattie.

With all the media interest and careers to be made or broken by the outcome.

That just doesn't add up to me.

[Ms Diddles]

I'll check it out Ms D and get back to you.
Are you checking out the number 6 timetable perchance?

Errrrrrm! I hadn't got as far as identifying particular service numbers!

I'm just a bit intrigued as to why the police had such a bee in their bonnet about BJ making for the southside / Govan.

I thought it would be interesting if there was an early morning service from the Govan depot heading out Stonehouse / Strathaven way.

It wouldn't prove anything of course, but would be of interest nonetheless.

Thanks for your help.