Bible John (General Discussion)

[barnflatwyngarde]

Casual misogyny is certainly a feature of these police documents, a world where a woman who 'likes male company' (don't most women?) segues into 'promiscuity.' The blanket statement about the Gowan sisters- that 'all three are promiscuous' - can hardly have been thoroughly checked for accuracy. The character of the women is constantly implied by attributing two possible surnames by which they were known; this was a legal nicety used in sheriff courts when sentencing prostitutes and carried a serious social stigma at the time. The tabloid newspaper equivalent at the time was 'attractive divorcee.'

No doubt the police could claim they were seeking to avoid ambiguity by referencing these names, just as referencing that some had children to more one father might be some sort of motive for their murder. But it does not read like that today and I doubt it did at the time. Jemima McDonald had three children and we are offered the less than crucial information that one father was a Yugoslav whilst another was from the Caribbean. The third child's father was presumably a Glaswegian so he is not deemed worthy of mention- although unlike the others he was most likely still living in the area! This casual racism includes mention of Patricia Docker having 'affairs with Greek Cypriots' whilst in Cypress.

So I can see why Audrey Gillan is highlighting the social lens through which the murders were investigated, and how it may have hindered the inquiry. After all, none of these women were killed by a 'foreigner.' Everything points to their having met their death at the hands of a fellow Glaswegian. And if they were as free with their favours as the police believed, that was surely not the reason they were killed: they were killed because they refused the sexual advances of a sexual maniac, not because they welcomed his advances.

Very good post cobalt.

It echoes my sentiments entirely.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Flash Gordon was filmed in the Highlands??!!!!

I had no idea!!

Neither did I. It’s a great site though. I wonder if there are any old films set in Glasgow which might show footage of some relevant BJ locations?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jemima McDonald had three children and we are offered the less than crucial information that one father was a Yugoslav whilst another was from the Caribbean. The third child's father was presumably a Glaswegian so he is not deemed worthy of mention- although unlike the others he was most likely still living in the area!.

Her eldest girl, Elizabeth, was 11 and had a Yugoslav father but I think that both of her sons, Andrew (8) and Alan (7) were by a black West Indian man called Elridge Motley (I can’t recall if that’s the correct spelling)

[Ms Diddles]

It’s this site Ms D

https://www.reelstreets.com/films/sparrows-cant-sing-2/

It’s brilliant.

Flash Gordon was filmed in the Highlands??!!!!

I had no idea!!

[Ms Diddles]

Well, I know that John Templeton was always very polite, always very well turned out and certainly spoke in a way that you wouldn't normally expect from an attendant.

Apologies if the above comment smacks slightly of social stereotyping.

If only you had asked him which team he supported, eh Barn?!

[cobalt]

Casual misogyny is certainly a feature of these police documents, a world where a woman who 'likes male company' (don't most women?) segues into 'promiscuity.' The blanket statement about the Gowan sisters- that 'all three are promiscuous' - can hardly have been thoroughly checked for accuracy. The character of the women is constantly implied by attributing two possible surnames by which they were known; this was a legal nicety used in sheriff courts when sentencing prostitutes and carried a serious social stigma at the time. The tabloid newspaper equivalent at the time was 'attractive divorcee.'

No doubt the police could claim they were seeking to avoid ambiguity by referencing these names, just as referencing that some had children to more one father might be some sort of motive for their murder. But it does not read like that today and I doubt it did at the time. Jemima McDonald had three children and we are offered the less than crucial information that one father was a Yugoslav whilst another was from the Caribbean. The third child's father was presumably a Glaswegian so he is not deemed worthy of mention- although unlike the others he was most likely still living in the area! This casual racism includes mention of Patricia Docker having 'affairs with Greek Cypriots' whilst in Cypress.

So I can see why Audrey Gillan is highlighting the social lens through which the murders were investigated, and how it may have hindered the inquiry. After all, none of these women were killed by a 'foreigner.' Everything points to their having met their death at the hands of a fellow Glaswegian. And if they were as free with their favours as the police believed, that was surely not the reason they were killed: they were killed because they refused the sexual advances of a sexual maniac, not because they welcomed his advances.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Am I right in thinking that it’s pronounced Hoik?

Yeah, but it looks weird spelt like that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think it's Hawick Street.
If you check on Google Street View there is a Kelso street just off it.
The council tended to use themes when naming streets, so to have two streets next to one another named after Border towns seems logical.

Am I right in thinking that it’s pronounced Hoik?

[barnflatwyngarde]

It’s a semi-detached end house on Google Earth. I can’t see any reason why it couldn’t be the same house?

I think it's Hawick Street.
If you check on Google Street View there is a Kelso street just off it.
The council tended to use themes when naming streets, so to have two streets next to one another named after Border towns seems logical.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s a semi-detached end house on Google Earth. I can’t see any reason why it couldn’t be the same house?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could it be Hawick Street?

There is a Hawick Street about 1.8 miles from Earl Street.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...5fwj?entry=ttu

I was thinking that it’s either Nawick or Hawick with Hawick sounding the likeliest and as you’ve found it that must be the one. The number looks like 189 to me?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think you’ve misread that Barn. 11 Harland Cottages was where Joan Armour (O’Donnell) lived, she was a friend of Helen’s. Jean’s address is 3 lines above that.

Could it be Hawick Street?

There is a Hawick Street about 1.8 miles from Earl Street.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Harland+Cottages,+Glasgow+G14+0AS/@55.8772476,-4.3508742,16.93z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48884f5eb5f468b7:0xe851e090ebca5a6a!8m2!3d55.8759894!4d-4.3486896!16s%2Fg%2F11c6lj5fwj?entry=ttu

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think you’ve misread that Barn. 11 Harland Cottages was where Joan Armour (O’Donnell) lived, she was a friend of Helen’s. Jean’s address is 3 lines above that.

Doh!
Sorry, I'll have another go at it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah Herlock, it is Harland Cottages, not far from Earl Street.

Here's a link to Google Maps.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Harland+Cottages,+Glasgow+G14+0AS/@55.8772476,-4.3508742,16.93z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48884f5eb5f468b7:0xe851e090ebca5 a6a!8m2!3d55.8759894!4d-4.3486896!16s%2Fg%2F11c6lj5fwj?entry=ttu

I think you’ve misread that Barn. 11 Harland Cottages was where Joan Armour (O’Donnell) lived, she was a friend of Helen’s. Jean’s address is 3 lines above that.

[barnflatwyngarde]

How easy the word ‘promiscuous’ comes out. As if they were sleeping with a man every time they went dancing.

Thanks for posting Barn. Can you, or anyone, make out Jean’s address on the middle page?

Yeah Herlock, it is Harland Cottages, not far from Earl Street.

Here's a link to Google Maps.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Harland+Cottages,+Glasgow+G14+0AS/@55.8772476,-4.3508742,16.93z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48884f5eb5f468b7:0xe851e090ebca5a6a!8m2!3d55.8759894!4d-4.3486896!16s%2Fg%2F11c6lj5fwj?entry=ttu