Bible John (General Discussion)

[cobalt]

A contemporary report from 1967 mentions a cafe owner, mid 40s, who heard a couple arguing near the place where Rita Ellis' body was found the following morning. This happened around 9pm, at least an hour after her last being seen.

Rather curiously a local woman, previously unaware of the case, did some detective work quite recently and discovered that the story about Rita being worried about being attacked was known to a woman who she thinks worked in a cafe at the time. Possibly the daughter of the cafe owner back in 1967 who I assume is not Pauline Badger but perhaps knew her then.

This is not much help regarding Bible John though. I have to assume the Puttock crime scene DNA has been entered on the UK database and did not match that from the army base. That leaves the possibility of John McInnes, but surely his movements have been scrutinised and he has been discounted as a suspect.

[rjpalmer]

Just a general comment on Wilson after Cobalt mentioned him giving his opinion on the Ellis murder.

Ah, okay, Michael. I thought there was some connection between Badger and Wilson's theories that I didn't know about.

I went back and listened again to the end of the Ellis podcast, and it's stranger than I remembered.

If what is stated is true--and who knows in this day and age?---the medical technician at the RAF base must have been identified--just not named, though no account I've yet seen makes this explicit.

The claim is that he was transferred abroad right after the murder of Ellis in November 1967 (this was four months before the first Bible John murder). It then also goes on to claim he was on 'leave' at the time of each of the three Bible John murders in 1968-1969. Of course, there's no way anyone could know this unless the man in question has been identified, and his service record checked. It would also have been enough of a coincidence that it would have been investigated.

As Cobalt states, since 200 men have had their DNA checked in the Ellis case and were eliminated, wouldn't he be among them? One often gets the feeling that some of these theories area a wind-up, with certain necessary bits of information deliberately withheld, but I'm still going to look into it a bit further. Ciao.

[cobalt]

There are different accounts of Rita's movements on the evening she was killed, some of which come from local newspapers. In most versions she left her apartment block witnessed by a young couple at around 7.25 and went to the guardhouse to await her lift to go babysitting. The officer drove instead to the block at around 7.40, waited 15 minutes, then returned with his wife since men were not allowed into the female block. His wife made enquiries to no avail, although it is believed she went into block 6 instead of block 7 where Rita resided.

One account has Rita being picked up by a car just prior to the arrival of the officer at 7.40. Another account has her returning to her room inside the block where she was seen at around 8pm. There is another possible sighting of her around this time near the gymnasium but I have no idea how far away that would be from her room.

The army base was busy that night- it was the weekend I think- with disco and bingo on the entertainment agenda which meant a fair number of non-army personnel would have been in the grounds. Female quarters inside an army camp would be an obvious place of interest for anyone seeking female company. If Rita was standing looking like she'd been 'stood up' she might have attracted interest of the worst sort.

David Wilson has identified what he believes is a strong suspect and passed such information to the police. I wouldn't expect to hear much more on that front. The MoD records of the case remain sealed until 2070 on grounds of national security.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't understand your comment, Herlock. What does David Wilson have to do with Pauline Badger's statement?

I'm not convinced of the 'car confusion' theory mentioned by Cobalt, though it was discussed in the podcast. For this to have happened, either she was extremely unlucky and the wrong car she got into just happened to be that of a rapists/murderer, or it was a premeditated plot by someone who knew of her babysitting assignment and went to meet her before the wing commander arrived. The first is possible but mere speculation, while the second seems farfetched.

Just a general comment on Wilson after Cobalt mentioned him giving his opinion on the Ellis murder.

[rjpalmer]

Cobalt/ Roger,

After reading the background provided by Cobalt this one certainly doesn’t seem anything like as possible as it does at first glance. Why is David Wilson wheeled out every time a cold case is looked into? How many has he solved?

I don't understand your comment, Herlock. What does David Wilson have to do with Pauline Badger's statement?

I'm not convinced of the 'car confusion' theory mentioned by Cobalt, though it was discussed in the podcast. For this to have happened, either she was extremely unlucky and the wrong car she got into just happened to be that of a rapists/murderer, or it was a premeditated plot by someone who knew of her babysitting assignment and went to meet her before the wing commander arrived. The first is possible but mere speculation, while the second seems farfetched.

[Abby Normal]

recognizing someone from a photofit from sixty years ago? lol cmon

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cobalt/ Roger,

After reading the background provided by Cobalt this one certainly doesn’t seem anything like as possible as it does at first glance. Why is David Wilson wheeled out every time a cold case is looked into? How many has he solved?

[rjpalmer]

Creepy, red haired Scotsman with overlapping teeth who works in lab on army base? Not too difficult to trace I would have thought. Around 200 persons have been eliminated by DNA in the Rita Ellis murder and since there does appear to be DNA available from the Helen Puttock murder then presumably that connection has been eliminated too.

Pauline Badger, who would have been 19 at the time of the Rita Ellis murder, does not convince as a witness. Badger has claimed that Rita spoke to her about a fear she would be attacked a few days before she was indeed murdered, but offers little more detail of why. By all accounts Rita was a quiet, shy girl bordering on nervous so this might not have been out of character. Badger also claims that Rita and the later Bible John victims were 'carbon copies' in terms of appearance but I can't see that myself.

Badger states that she had her epiphany while watching the BBC documentary "The Hunt for Bible John."

One thought immediately crossed my mind. Her memory of the Scot at RAF Halton in 1967 being a technician in a medical lab would be impressive if the documentary didn't mention this 'lead' in the Bible John case but would be considerably less so if it did. (I haven't seen it, so I don't know).

[cobalt]

Creepy, red haired Scotsman with overlapping teeth who works in lab on army base? Not too difficult to trace I would have thought. Around 200 persons have been eliminated by DNA in the Rita Ellis murder and since there does appear to be DNA available from the Helen Puttock murder then presumably that connection has been eliminated too.

Pauline Badger, who would have been 19 at the time of the Rita Ellis murder, does not convince as a witness. Badger has claimed that Rita spoke to her about a fear she would be attacked a few days before she was indeed murdered, but offers little more detail of why. By all accounts Rita was a quiet, shy girl bordering on nervous so this might not have been out of character. Badger also claims that Rita and the later Bible John victims were 'carbon copies' in terms of appearance but I can't see that myself.

David Wilson, pompous criminology expert, has waded into the case and once he stakes his professional reputation on a theory I tend to rule it out. Wilson believes that Rita went off willingly in a car with a young man she knew but resisted his amorous advances when they were alone in a quiet area. The fact that this flies in the face of her known character up till then and that she had promised to babysit for a senior officer on the base that evening is brushed aside. There was a mix up over where Rita was to be picked up on the base and in the confusion it is believed that Rita, who had never actually met the senior officer, assumed that the car she went into had been sent by him. But at least Wilson resists the impulse to implicate Tobin on this one.

These police photofits might be of limited use. Here are a couple of BJ types with Glasgow connections who might be worth a look. Except they were two professional footballers without the slightest connection to the murders in 1968 and 1969.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One thing that struck me as rather iffy is that one would think the RAF would still have service records and this man wouldn't be difficult to trace...

Yes, how big could this lab have been?

[Herlock Sholmes]

While on a trip, I was listening to a podcast and came across a Bible John suspect that I had never heard of, though maybe others here have already encountered him.

The podcast was about the murder of Rita Ellis, an RAF servicewoman, aged only 19, in November 1967. She had arranged to babysit the children of a wing commander on the base (RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire) but never showed up. Later she was found beaten and strangled to death and partially disrobed.

Very little progress was ever made in solving the case and the Thames Valley Police consider it an open investigation.

At the very end of the podcast, it mentioned that a woman named Pauline Badger, who had been a stewardess at the base back in the 1960s, saw the new sketch of Bible John a couple of years ago and was sure she recognized a young serviceman at the base, a Scotsman. The interesting thing is that she said he was a training to be a medical lab technician at RAF Halton. There was something about him that she found to be creepy and, of course, Bible John is said to have alluded to working in a lab.

Of course, her memory could have been playing tricks after all these years, but it was reported that the was some reason for believing that Rita Ellis had been murdered by someone on the base, as the location of the body was off the beaten track.

After a short search, I noticed that Scottish Sun ran a brief story on this back in January 2022.

I'm convinced I met Bible John, I didn't make the link until I saw new photofit of serial killer | The Scottish Sun

There was (or is) apparently some effort underway to collect DNA samples from everyone still alive who had worked at RAF Halton back in the 1960s, though what truth there is to this I do not know. It would be a massive undertaking.

Hi Roger,

I recall seeing an episode of a true crime documentary series on this case but no mention of Bible John at that time but I did see the suggestion made in Garcia’s boom and on another tv documentary (I think). The lab connection adds to the intrigue.

[rjpalmer]

One thing that struck me as rather iffy is that one would think the RAF would still have service records and this man wouldn't be difficult to trace...

[rjpalmer]

While on a trip, I was listening to a podcast and came across a Bible John suspect that I had never heard of, though maybe others here have already encountered him.

The podcast was about the murder of Rita Ellis, an RAF servicewoman, aged only 19, in November 1967. She had arranged to babysit the children of a wing commander on the base (RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire) but never showed up. Later she was found beaten and strangled to death and partially disrobed.

Very little progress was ever made in solving the case and the Thames Valley Police consider it an open investigation.

At the very end of the podcast, it mentioned that a woman named Pauline Badger, who had been a stewardess at the base back in the 1960s, saw the new sketch of Bible John a couple of years ago and was sure she recognized a young serviceman at the base, a Scotsman. The interesting thing is that she said he was a training to be a medical lab technician at RAF Halton. There was something about him that she found to be creepy and, of course, Bible John is said to have alluded to working in a lab.

Of course, her memory could have been playing tricks after all these years, but it was reported that the was some reason for believing that Rita Ellis had been murdered by someone on the base, as the location of the body was off the beaten track.

After a short search, I noticed that Scottish Sun ran a brief story on this back in January 2022.

I'm convinced I met Bible John, I didn't make the link until I saw new photofit of serial killer | The Scottish Sun

There was (or is) apparently some effort underway to collect DNA samples from everyone still alive who had worked at RAF Halton back in the 1960s, though what truth there is to this I do not know. It would be a massive undertaking.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello again peeps!

I am typing up my notes from Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and hope to share these with you shortly (sorry for the delay, but life got in the way).

One of the enduring frustrations of the case is the failure of Castlemilk John to come forward and the police's failure to trace him.
However, I have found out that the police put together a photofit of Castlemilk John, and distributed it to all police stations.

This piece of information came from an interview with Joe Beattie in the Sunday Mail of 23rd August 1970.
The relevant article says:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification.
Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John - the man who was with Bible John at the Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

(Sunday Mail 23rd August 1970)

The only people who were in a position to contribute to this photofit were Jeannie Langford and possibly the taxi driver who drove them to Scotstoun, although any input from him is probably unlikely.
Castlemilk John had no input in the cigarette machine dispute at the Barrowland.

So, if the article is true, and Joe Beattie is to be trusted, the police had a workable photofit describing Catlemilk John, and this photofit may still be lurking in the original case files.

That’s interesting Barn. I’d certainly never heard of that. It shows the value of the first book written on the case by someone who could question those involved at the time. I think that Castermilk John had gone for a bus before they found a taxi so I’m guessing that this photo fit must have come from Jeannie. As you say, he wasn’t involved in the cigarette machine incident and although he would have been nearby the staff would have had no reason to have paid him any attention, with Bible John doing his Dirty Harry act.

I look forward to your notes Barn (and no need to apologise…life never allows you to do the stuff that you actually want to do when you want to do them.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello again peeps!

I am typing up my notes from Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and hope to share these with you shortly (sorry for the delay, but life got in the way).

One of the enduring frustrations of the case is the failure of Castlemilk John to come forward and the police's failure to trace him.
However, I have found out that the police put together a photofit of Castlemilk John, and distributed it to all police stations.

This piece of information came from an interview with Joe Beattie in the Sunday Mail of 23rd August 1970.
The relevant article says:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification.
Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John - the man who was with Bible John at the Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

(Sunday Mail 23rd August 1970)

The only people who were in a position to contribute to this photofit were Jeannie Langford and possibly the taxi driver who drove them to Scotstoun, although any input from him is probably unlikely.
Castlemilk John had no input in the cigarette machine dispute at the Barrowland.

So, if the article is true, and Joe Beattie is to be trusted, the police had a workable photofit describing Catlemilk John, and this photofit may still be lurking in the original case files.