Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's strange that you say that!

A while ago I accessed an old Glasgow telephone directory and looked up how many Templeton's were listed.
It was a surprisingly low number, about 20 if I remember correctly.

So the police wouldn't have had a huge job tracking down anyone called Templeton, although I accept that there would be people called Templeton who didn't have a phone.

The only thing that I could think of was that the police dismissed the likelihood that the killer would give Helen and Jeannie his real name.
The police were armed with a great witness, Jeannie, and they had Lennox Paterson's photofit, which they thought was an excellent likeness, and probably thought that an arrest was imminent.

After about 5-6 months with no real progress, they were prepared to consider the possibility that perhaps the killer had in fact mistakenly given his real name.

Like so much in this case, it's another little enigma.

That’s a possibility Barn and as we just don’t know it’s difficult to make a judgement. But after two murders, and with the police desperate for an arrest would they really have dismissed the suggestion that the killer had possibly given his real name just because it doesn’t sound likely (which I agree, it doesn’t of course)? I’d have thought that they might have considered that maybe the killer had believed that Jeannie might not have heard him and it wouldn’t have mattered that Helen had. It’s impossible to draw any solid conclusions though. Another one for the unanswered questions box?

[cobalt]

That is a surprisingly low number for a recognisable Scottish name- one that traces its roots as far back as the Knights Templar. (I'll avoid the temptation to pursue a Free Masonic cover up here.) In 1969 every male Glaswegian by the age of 21 would have been on the electoral roll so tracking down Templetons, Emersons and Semples in the appropriate age range should have been a straight forward procedure for the police. Granted BJ, even if he had not set out intending to kill that evening, might still have used a false name: but never look a gift horse in the mouth as the saying goes. The name 'Templeton' seems a stronger possible lead than hairdressers, clairvoyants or Joe Beattie's gut instinct.

Beattie's gut instinct regarding the Barrowland Ballroom seems suspect to me as well. A loner prowling the dance hall is hardly an attractive prospect therefore a man, whatever his motives, is likely to 'team up' in a loose association with another bloke to make himself appear more presentable. To some extent this seems to have happened with Castlemilk John, though possibly they interacted after having 'clicked' with Helen and Jeannie. Assuming this was not BJ's first visit to the Barrowland then he must have had a few interactions with other men before moving in to ask a woman for a dance. And his dancing partners could not have been limited to those we now consider to be his victims. So there should be more close witnesses to a man answering his description than we appear to have.

Beattie claimed he met reluctance from Barrowland patrons if not quite a wall of silence. The implication was that married men and women on a night out 'on the pull' clammed up rather than help the enquiry. Maybe so, but what about the policy of publicly declaring BJ a bogeyman: did that perhaps discourage patrons of the Barrowland from connecting a casual chat they'd had with BJ to the monster being sought?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Does that seem a long time to you to find a Templeton? It does to me Barn.

It's strange that you say that!

A while ago I accessed an old Glasgow telephone directory and looked up how many Templeton's were listed.
It was a surprisingly low number, about 20 if I remember correctly.

So the police wouldn't have had a huge job tracking down anyone called Templeton, although I accept that there would be people called Templeton who didn't have a phone.

The only thing that I could think of was that the police dismissed the likelihood that the killer would give Helen and Jeannie his real name.
The police were armed with a great witness, Jeannie, and they had Lennox Paterson's photofit, which they thought was an excellent likeness, and probably thought that an arrest was imminent.

After about 5-6 months with no real progress, they were prepared to consider the possibility that perhaps the killer had in fact mistakenly given his real name.

Like so much in this case, it's another little enigma.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
According to John Templeton's wife June, the two detectives turned up approx' 6 months after Helen Puttock's murder.

That would put it around April/May 1970.

Does that seem a long time to you to find a Templeton? It does to me Barn.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn,

Do we know how soon after the murder the 2 officers turned up to interview him?

Hi Herlock,
According to John Templeton's wife June, the two detectives turned up approx' 6 months after Helen Puttock's murder.

That would put it around April/May 1970.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi cobalt,
John Templeton's wife June, understood that the 2 police officers turned up to interview him at home for two specific reasons.
The first was that he matched the name given by the killer to Helen Puttock and her sister Jeannie.
The second was that he had lived in the Scotstoun area but had had moved before Helen Puttock's murder.

Re the comment on the comparison between the photo of Templeton, I can't agree with you on this particular point.

Lennox Paterson's portrait/photofit of the killer, to my eyes, does look very similar.

Scruffs weren't allowed into the Barrowland, and while i'm not sure if there was a formal dress code, there are plenty of photos and videos of the period showing smart young men in suits, shirts and ties.

Hi Barn,

Do we know how soon after the murder the 2 officers turned up to interview him?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Barn,

We're pretty much on the same page but in my opinion Bavin-Mizzi isn't. Dress codes were strict regarding entry to all dance halls in the late 1960s and a tie was de rigeur. The hair style worn by Templeton in his photo, presumably 1967, was fine but anything longer might have risked refusal. This was still Sergeant Pepper era and before John Lennon went full Jesus Christ. But by 1969 restrictions had eased and in my home town the local rock group called Nazareth actually had the temerity to go on age without ties! That was considered a big moment at the time, believe me. I suspect a dance hall guy like Templeton would have followed the trends and looked much more 'hippie' by 1969 than in his photo in Bavin-Mizzis's book. Bible John was a 'square' and identified as such by Jeannie. There is no comparison between them Both worthy of the name by anyone who lived through that era.

The reasons for Templeton being quizzed are superficial at best. Beattie and Mizzi believe BJ set out in order to kill but, perhaps being a decent bloke, he gave the police a fighting chance by making his identity clear beforehand? And a printer becomes transformed into a man who works in a laboratory? Before marrying and leading a quiet life thereafter in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow? The whole notion is preposterous.

Templeton basked in the notoriety of being 'Bible John' amongst his work colleagues although that was also true of Sutcliffe in relation to being suspected of being the 'Yorkshire Ripper.' So we can't draw any conclusions from that. Templeton's upbringing in Yoker might be significant to him knowing bars in that area and the Puttock murder was committed in that area. So I won't dismiss him as a suspect- he does certainly tick a few boxes- but the 100% certainty of Mizzi is as tedious as David Wilson staking his professional reputation.

Cobalt, yeah I think that you're probably correct re the hair style(s).

The idea that a killer who had already killed twice, would obligingly give his real name to the victim and her sister is a bit of a stretch.
But who knows how the mind of a psychopath works?

Templeton certainly can't be ruled out, there are just too many "possible" links relating to the case.

It was reported recently that Bavin-Mizzi has determined that John Templeton has no living relatives, so the possible DNA trail dies there.

Personally, I think that there was a police cover-up of sorts, and that there was a man called John McInnes who probably had a DNA connection to the case.
What I am not sure about is whether Jeannie Langford ever saw John McInnes in a police identification parade.

[cobalt]

Barn,

We're pretty much on the same page but in my opinion Bavin-Mizzi isn't. Dress codes were strict regarding entry to all dance halls in the late 1960s and a tie was de rigeur. The hair style worn by Templeton in his photo, presumably 1967, was fine but anything longer might have risked refusal. This was still Sergeant Pepper era and before John Lennon went full Jesus Christ. But by 1969 restrictions had eased and in my home town the local rock group called Nazareth actually had the temerity to go on age without ties! That was considered a big moment at the time, believe me. I suspect a dance hall guy like Templeton would have followed the trends and looked much more 'hippie' by 1969 than in his photo in Bavin-Mizzis's book. Bible John was a 'square' and identified as such by Jeannie. There is no comparison between them Both worthy of the name by anyone who lived through that era.

The reasons for Templeton being quizzed are superficial at best. Beattie and Mizzi believe BJ set out in order to kill but, perhaps being a decent bloke, he gave the police a fighting chance by making his identity clear beforehand? And a printer becomes transformed into a man who works in a laboratory? Before marrying and leading a quiet life thereafter in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow? The whole notion is preposterous.

Templeton basked in the notoriety of being 'Bible John' amongst his work colleagues although that was also true of Sutcliffe in relation to being suspected of being the 'Yorkshire Ripper.' So we can't draw any conclusions from that. Templeton's upbringing in Yoker might be significant to him knowing bars in that area and the Puttock murder was committed in that area. So I won't dismiss him as a suspect- he does certainly tick a few boxes- but the 100% certainty of Mizzi is as tedious as David Wilson staking his professional reputation.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The police activity at the library locker has all the hallmarks of covering their backs. They could hardly have expected to find any usable DNA inside a locker (presumably metal?) after at least 14 years. But to impress the public, boost newspaper sales and increase sales of a real crime book it might be possible to exhume Templeton's body before discovering no firm conclusions can be reached. That will cost the public a pretty penny or two and leave a cloud over surviving family members but maybe inspire another suspect, so the process can be repeated again.

Bavin-Mizzi claims that BJ went out with the intent to kill so how does she square this belief with him giving his real name to Jeannie? And if she thinks the 1967 photo of Templeton (snazzy looking Glesca guy with slight sideburns, on the pull) resembles the iconic 1969 Bible John portrait (staid, shortish hair, rather aloof looking individual) then she was not around in the late 1960s. Her cultural compass is not up to the task.

What would be interesting to discover is why Templeton was questioned by police at the time.

Hi cobalt,
John Templeton's wife June, understood that the 2 police officers turned up to interview him at home for two specific reasons.
The first was that he matched the name given by the killer to Helen Puttock and her sister Jeannie.
The second was that he had lived in the Scotstoun area but had had moved before Helen Puttock's murder.

Re the comment on the comparison between the photo of Templeton, I can't agree with you on this particular point.

Lennox Paterson's portrait/photofit of the killer, to my eyes, does look very similar.

Scruffs weren't allowed into the Barrowland, and while i'm not sure if there was a formal dress code, there are plenty of photos and videos of the period showing smart young men in suits, shirts and ties.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey Ms D!

Apparently the locker was reassigned to another attendant who was transferred to the community libraries, and it doesn't appear that the locker was reassigned after that.
So it appears that from the Police's point of view it was was worth a shot, but the intriguing thing to my mind is what was the catalyst for this move.

I suppose that it could have been nothing more than reacting to the points made in Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book. However if police reacted to every point made in the many true crime books published each year, they would have little time to do anything else.

We know that John Templeton was interviewed by police regarding the murders.

Is it possible that they had another look at the notes of that interview and found, or reinterpreted something from the interview that they thought was worth investigating further?

Re Herlock's query as to when Templeton left the Libraries Department, I don't know.

Templeton died aged 69 or 70 in 2015, so if he retired at the "normal" age of 65, it means that he would have left the department round about 2010.

The Templeton aspect of the case is interesting, and he does tick some of the boxes that we "think" we know about Bible John, however everything in Audrey Gillan's excellent podcast does point to a Lanarkshire connection.

I’ve already got the book listed for a re-read Barn. The thing that comes back to me, possibly more than anything, is this issue of the Moylan’s card which appears to have been the catalyst for McInnes’ entry into the case. I considered whether he was just a chat up merchant who happened to have given Helen Puttock his card at some point? The card wouldn’t have had his name on it but it would have triggered a visit to the shop. So what if it was Templeton after all and he was with Helen in the taxi but some time prior to that evening McInnes had tried chatting her up and gave her a card which the police found at the scene? Maybe the card that ‘John’ flashed at her in the club was something unconnected?

Certainly wouldn’t have been his library card though Barn.

[cobalt]

The police activity at the library locker has all the hallmarks of covering their backs. They could hardly have expected to find any usable DNA inside a locker (presumably metal?) after at least 14 years. But to impress the public, boost newspaper sales and increase sales of a real crime book it might be possible to exhume Templeton's body before discovering no firm conclusions can be reached. That will cost the public a pretty penny or two and leave a cloud over surviving family members but maybe inspire another suspect, so the process can be repeated again.

Bavin-Mizzi claims that BJ went out with the intent to kill so how does she square this belief with him giving his real name to Jeannie? And if she thinks the 1967 photo of Templeton (snazzy looking Glesca guy with slight sideburns, on the pull) resembles the iconic 1969 Bible John portrait (staid, shortish hair, rather aloof looking individual) then she was not around in the late 1960s. Her cultural compass is not up to the task.

What would be interesting to discover is why Templeton was questioned by police at the time.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Fascinating, Barn!

Thanks for that intriguing tidbit!

Presumably that same locker would have been used by hundreds of people in the intervening years though?

Don't get me wrong, it's worth a throw of the dice but I'm not sure how credible any findings would be after so long.

Hey Ms D!

Apparently the locker was reassigned to another attendant who was transferred to the community libraries, and it doesn't appear that the locker was reassigned after that.
So it appears that from the Police's point of view it was was worth a shot, but the intriguing thing to my mind is what was the catalyst for this move.

I suppose that it could have been nothing more than reacting to the points made in Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book. However if police reacted to every point made in the many true crime books published each year, they would have little time to do anything else.

We know that John Templeton was interviewed by police regarding the murders.

Is it possible that they had another look at the notes of that interview and found, or reinterpreted something from the interview that they thought was worth investigating further?

Re Herlock's query as to when Templeton left the Libraries Department, I don't know.

Templeton died aged 69 or 70 in 2015, so if he retired at the "normal" age of 65, it means that he would have left the department round about 2010.

The Templeton aspect of the case is interesting, and he does tick some of the boxes that we "think" we know about Bible John, however everything in Audrey Gillan's excellent podcast does point to a Lanarkshire connection.

[Ms Diddles]

I had a coffee yesterday (well tea actually) with some old work colleagues, and we were talking about our memories of working with John Templeton in the Mitchell Library.

My old boss told me that on the back of the Jill Bavin-Mizzi book on the case, the police turned up at the Mitchell Library and swabbed for DNA the locker that was used by John Templeton.

Damned interesting!

Fascinating, Barn!

Thanks for that intriguing tidbit!

Presumably that same locker would have been used by hundreds of people in the intervening years though?

Don't get me wrong, it's worth a throw of the dice but I'm not sure how credible any findings would be after so long.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I had a coffee yesterday (well tea actually) with some old work colleagues, and we were talking about our memories of working with John Templeton in the Mitchell Library.

My old boss told me that on the back of the Jill Bavin-Mizzi book on the case, the police turned up at the Mitchell Library and swabbed for DNA the locker that was used by John Templeton.

Damned interesting!

That is interesting Barn. How long since he’d used it?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I had a coffee yesterday (well tea actually) with some old work colleagues, and we were talking about our memories of working with John Templeton in the Mitchell Library.

My old boss told me that on the back of the Jill Bavin-Mizzi book on the case, the police turned up at the Mitchell Library and swabbed for DNA the locker that was used by John Templeton.

Damned interesting!