Bible John (General Discussion)

[cobalt]

I think Ms Diddles is correct in focusing on witnesses from the Barrowland. There must have been potential riches in the statements obtained. 'Checking out the talent' is a very pithy way of describing it and Beattie, despite some reservations some of us have about him, must have had a keen eye for witness testimony. He knew Glasgow, the Glasgow that was a 'dancing city' in much the same way that Liverpool was a 'singing city.'

I commented earlier on how we tend to see the female victims as desperate lonely hearts, and how there is nothing to substantiate this. Women generally do not go to dance halls on their own. But the same applies to blokes: having a pal in tow gives a man a certain social acceptance, offers a choice of partners to the women and, if all fails, at least you have someone to commiserate with when given the brush off. We are always led to think of BJ being on his own but he had been to the Barrowland at least twice- probably more I suspect- and from what we can gather there were two work colleagues there that night as well. This image of the cold, slightly aloof loner is part of the problem in how we see the crime in my opinion. And as some of us have noted, it would be interesting to know about other partners that Helen and BJ danced with that evening.

Why did the Bible John inquiry fail? I don't know but the Yorkshire Ripper case offers some clues. We are now encouraged to see the chronic failure of that inquiry as a technocratic failure but to me that exculpates the police. Due to his accumulation of victims the Ripper squad collected a good amount of information that should have allowed them to put Sutcliffe closer to the frame than he was when arrested. ( I think he was not even in the top 100 suspects?)They had good photofits from surviving victims; they knew his approximate age and his shoe size; the worn tread on his right boot suggested a lorry driver; they were confident he worked locally due to a recovered new bank note he gave to one of the victims; they knew he had a gap between his front teeth; they knew his blood group; they had a fair idea of the cars he drove during his murder spree which could be confirmed by the PNC; Sutcliffe's car was one (perhaps one of many, to be fair) regularly spotted in traditional 'red light' areas. It should not have taken a computerised system to tie that information together and hone in on a smallish range of suspects.

The Glasgow police knew a fair bit about about BJ. They knew he was local (something the Ripper enquiry completely ballsed up.) They knew he had frequented the Barrowland where he must have been spotted at sometime. They had a more than decent photofit to work from. They knew he was quite tall, smartly dressed, had reddish hair and smoked Embassy cigarettes. They knew his blood group and they knew he had a working knowledge of the Bible. They could also assume he did not live in the west of the city if the late bus sighting was to be trusted. Given the late hour of the murder of Helen Puttock, BJ must have had somewhere in Glasgow to stay overnight. That's not as much as the Ripper squad had but it is a decent start. And to finish where I started, the Ripper squad had no witnesses that saw Sutcliffe and his victims together: the BJ inquiry did. They should have done better at tracking him down.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm inclined to think that he would have stood out among the Barrowland regulars.

In terms of his appearance, when I first moved to Glasgow from Yorkshire I remember being quite surprised at how much shorter the men were up here.

6ft or thereabouts wouldn't be circus-freak tall, but it would have made him conspicuous enough.

On top of that, the sandy hair, clean cut image along with the good quality but slightly unfashionable clothes would have been quite unusual.

In a place like the Barrowlands women would have been checking out the talent, and men would have been checking out the competition.

IIRC the two witnesses who saw him walking home with Mima independently stated that he was quite good looking, so that would not have gone unnoticed by the ladies at the dance hall.

More than his appearance though, I can't help but think that his well spoken voice and slightly superior behaviour (standing up whenever the ladies got up and pulling their chairs out for them, and the soft spoken, non-sweary, rather pompous authority that he exerted during the whole cigarette machine incident) would have been extremely unusual in that place at that time.

Perhaps (like Beattie) I am relying a bit too heavily on Jeannie's statements but I personally read her as being quite perceptive.

Not infallible, but she seems to have picked up on some quite interesting and subtle details which I don't think would be the case with a lot of witnesses.

It does raise the question though of why he was so at seemingly ease that after killing Pat Docker he went back twice to kill again apparently unconcerned that he might stand out. I think that’s exactly what he did do but it makes me wonder about how he was thinking at the time but I’m wary of falling into the trap of judging his actions and thought processes in the light of how I would have thought and reacted in those circumstances. After Jemima MacDonald was killed they had the Patterson picture everywhere. Why didn’t he lie low or pick another hunting ground? Might this suggest a man who simply not care if he got caught or not?

He goes back to the same place for victims.
He was probably seen with MacDonald by a neighbour at the crime scene and yet he still kills her.
He was seen with Helen and could be easily identified and yet he still killed her.

Option one: he didn’t set out to kill them but was triggered by something.
Option two: he was on some kind of downward spiral and couldn’t care less if he was caught or not.

[Ms Diddles]

It’s interesting that you mentioned in a previous post about a bit of a mythology that may have grow up around Beattie as a kind of Supercop. It reminds me of bit of John Du Rose in the Jack the Stripper case who was known as Four Day Johnny for the speed that he usually cleared up cases. He didn’t catch the Stripper though.

Interesting!

I have heard of that case but it's not one that I'm at all familiar with.

George Oldfield was highly regarded but failed to catch the Yorkshire Ripper. No doubt they were all very competent detectives but they were all in some ways out of their depth as regards specialised knowledge and the systems and resources that were in place at the time that they were working. And like any business I suppose that ‘cliques’ existed. Those who were in Beattie’s favour were probably less likely to be critical of him years later and were more likely to perhaps put him on some kind of pedestal. Caution is the watchword I’d say when it comes to judging these people. We can all be wrong. (Apart from me of course)

I seem to remember, on the podcast, it being mentioned that an officer at the time suggested investigating the area where the victim was seen getting on the bus but was ‘slapped down’ by Beattie. Was that an Officer years later trying to say ‘if only they had listened to me,’ with Beattie basically saying ‘I’ll do the thinking around here?’ Or was it simply an embittered officer doing a bit of point scoring? I don’t know.

I guess it could be either.

That must have been from one of the earlier podcasts in the series (that I didn't listen to on Sunday) as it rings a bell but only very vaguely.

Was that the possible sighting of Pat Docker after her night at the Barrowlands (IIRC somewhere on the Southside quite near her home)?

Another ‘mythology’ might be Jeannie’s suggestion that BJ stood out like a sore thumb. He may have been a bit smarter/straight-laced than many of the men that went there but he can hardly have been the kind of bloke that caused everyone to stop and stare as if he was dressed like Sid Vicious. He couldn’t really have stood out that much. Maybe Jeannie was being a bit like Beattie when he claimed that he’d have known him if he’d seen him. Maybe she was perhaps exaggerating her observational skills a little? Again though, maybe not.

I'm inclined to think that he would have stood out among the Barrowland regulars.

In terms of his appearance, when I first moved to Glasgow from Yorkshire I remember being quite surprised at how much shorter the men were up here.

6ft or thereabouts wouldn't be circus-freak tall, but it would have made him conspicuous enough.

On top of that, the sandy hair, clean cut image along with the good quality but slightly unfashionable clothes would have been quite unusual.

In a place like the Barrowlands women would have been checking out the talent, and men would have been checking out the competition.

IIRC the two witnesses who saw him walking home with Mima independently stated that he was quite good looking, so that would not have gone unnoticed by the ladies at the dance hall.

More than his appearance though, I can't help but think that his well spoken voice and slightly superior behaviour (standing up whenever the ladies got up and pulling their chairs out for them, and the soft spoken, non-sweary, rather pompous authority that he exerted during the whole cigarette machine incident) would have been extremely unusual in that place at that time.

Perhaps (like Beattie) I am relying a bit too heavily on Jeannie's statements but I personally read her as being quite perceptive.

Not infallible, but she seems to have picked up on some quite interesting and subtle details which I don't think would be the case with a lot of witnesses.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes!

When it comes to the Ripper I'm pretty much convinced that there will have been other women approached, perhaps some aborted attempts to solicit an unfortunate, perhaps some non fatal attacks.

In this case I'm not so sure.

BJ seems to have stood out like a sore thumb in the Barrowlands.

For all The Barras had a bit of a dubious reputation I find it hard to believe that EVERYONE who was there was married and there for nefarious purposes.

There must also have been plenty of people there just for the band and the dancing, who would have been perfectly free to speak up without it jeopardising their relationship or ruining their reputation.

Or as you say, perhaps they did and this information just isn't in the public domain.

Also, if it was the menstruation / thwarted passion that triggered BJ, you would think there would have been other women who had copped off with him, weren't on the rag and likely considered themselves to have had a very narrow escape.

It’s interesting that you mentioned in a previous post about a bit of a mythology that may have grow up around Beattie as a kind of Supercop. It reminds me of bit of John Du Rose in the Jack the Stripper case who was known as Four Day Johnny for the speed that he usually cleared up cases. He didn’t catch the Stripper though. George Oldfield was highly regarded but failed to catch the Yorkshire Ripper. No doubt they were all very competent detectives but they were all in some ways out of their depth as regards specialised knowledge and the systems and resources that were in place at the time that they were working. And like any business I suppose that ‘cliques’ existed. Those who were in Beattie’s favour were probably less likely to be critical of him years later and were more likely to perhaps put him on some kind of pedestal. Caution is the watchword I’d say when it comes to judging these people. We can all be wrong. (Apart from me of course)

I seem to remember, on the podcast, it being mentioned that an officer at the time suggested investigating the area where the victim was seen getting on the bus but was ‘slapped down’ by Beattie. Was that an Officer years later trying to say ‘if only they had listened to me,’ with Beattie basically saying ‘I’ll do the thinking around here?’ Or was it simply an embittered officer doing a bit of point scoring? I don’t know.

Another ‘mythology’ might be Jeannie’s suggestion that BJ stood out like a sore thumb. He may have been a bit smarter/straight-laced than many of the men that went there but he can hardly have been the kind of bloke that caused everyone to stop and stare as if he was dressed like Sid Vicious. He couldn’t really have stood out that much. Maybe Jeannie was being a bit like Beattie when he claimed that he’d have known him if he’d seen him. Maybe she was perhaps exaggerating her observational skills a little? Again though, maybe not.

[Ms Diddles]

And I can only come up with the fact that she was menstruating. A thing that’s perhaps surprising then is the absence of any other woman coming forward to claim that they had danced at the Barrowland with the same man. Then again, if they were married perhaps they didn’t trust the discretion of the Police? Or perhaps the police have a list of women who gave statements that they may have danced with him?

Yes!

When it comes to the Ripper I'm pretty much convinced that there will have been other women approached, perhaps some aborted attempts to solicit an unfortunate, perhaps some non fatal attacks.

In this case I'm not so sure.

BJ seems to have stood out like a sore thumb in the Barrowlands.

For all The Barras had a bit of a dubious reputation I find it hard to believe that EVERYONE who was there was married and there for nefarious purposes.

There must also have been plenty of people there just for the band and the dancing, who would have been perfectly free to speak up without it jeopardising their relationship or ruining their reputation.

Or as you say, perhaps they did and this information just isn't in the public domain.

Also, if it was the menstruation / thwarted passion that triggered BJ, you would think there would have been other women who had copped off with him, weren't on the rag and likely considered themselves to have had a very narrow escape.

[Ms Diddles]

Well, it's not a theory I think is worthy of much discussion but it seems to originate from some detectives who worked on the case at the time. From what I have gleaned from this site, I think the theory that McInnes/BJ were two different people is limited to the Helen Puttock murder.

Like you, I think witness evidence clearly links Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock to having been escorted home by the same person. For this person to have been 'hijacked' by a serial sex murderer not once, but twice, stretches credulity beyond breaking point.

Ahhh! Gotcha!

Thanks for the clarification and FWIW I completely agree.

[Ms Diddles]

I consider it a bad sign when an author heaps praise on a policeman who has impressed him personally. Stoddart might consider Joe Beattie to have been 'an exceptional man' but if he was so exceptional then he should really have solved the Bible John case.

I remember author Martin Dillon being highly impressed by Jimmy Nesbitt, the detective who eventually snared the notorious 'Shankill Butcher' gang. But Nesbitt failed to apprehend the three main players, one of whom walks around the Shankill to this day. Nesbitt claimed the gang was tight knit yet the identity of some of the members was known in the area before arrest and the
'Butchers' were a heavy drinking, machismo bunch of sadists with little grasp of military discipline. Remarkably, their death toll was into double figures before they were apprehended. When Nesbitt was later interviewed rather critically on a TV production, his claims about the difficulty in identifying members of the gang came over as self- serving.

Self-serving may be the reason that Joe Beattie preferred in later years to deny the existence of one man being responsible for three highly similar killings. He couldn't catch Bible John because he didn't exist is a useful excuse: although Beattie would then have to explain why he failed- on three separate occasions- to make a single arrest for a series of murders in his area of Glasgow.

The theory that McInnes was the man in the taxi but was scared away in a back alley by the real BJ strikes me as preposterous for a number of reasons, a couple of which have been mentioned in other posts. On this theory, McInnes should really have been an even better ID witness than Jeannie since he had tangled with the murderer. Jeannie attended over 200 (?) ID parades but McInnes, so far as we know, never attended any as a witness. He doesn't seem to have mentioned this dramatic brush with a murderer whilst engaged in his heavy drinking sessions and never approached a newspaper to sell his highly marketable story. It's a load of moonshine I think.

I get the impression that there's a kind of mythology that has grown up around Joe Beattie.

He seems to have been regarded as somewhat of a legend in police circles at the time.

Often such characters buy into their own myth to some extent and start to belive that their own instincts are completely infallible.

There is perhaps a tenancy towards autocracy and a failure to listen to the input of others.

Remember all that stuff about "if I ever met Bible John" I would know it was him immediately"?

I suspect Beattie's instincts probably served him well when dealing with the Glasgow underworld, drunken brawls, domestic murders or the usual gang violence.

Perhaps he wasn't quite so shrewd when it came to these completely different and seemingly unfathomable crimes.

[Ms Diddles]

I've been in it.

They have a better quality of sawdust in there!

I've never been in there.

I've been in the Auld Burnt Barn round the back of the Barras and the Sarry Heed before a gig.

I'll bet it gets mad in there when the market is on at the weekend.

I'd be tempted to check it out just for the experience, but I'm getting a little old and sedate for such places these days!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've been in it.

They have a better quality of sawdust in there!

I know the type of pub Barn. Been in more than a few. A ‘wipe your feet on the way out’ kind of place.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I find it strange that if we assume the taxi guy was BJ (which in all probability I think he was for all the reasons previously mentioned) he couldn't have been more conspicuous if he tried.

Does this mean he didn't intend to kill Helen but was triggered by something that occurred after they left the taxi?

I think that this is highly probable.

John Prescott p!ssed in a kebab shop probable FYI!

And I can only come up with the fact that she was menstruating. A thing that’s perhaps surprising then is the absence of any other woman coming forward to claim that they had danced at the Barrowland with the same man. Then again, if they were married perhaps they didn’t trust the discretion of the Police? Or perhaps the police have a list of women who gave statements that they may have danced with him?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Just the kind of place you’d pop into for evening cocktails Barn

I've been in it.

They have a better quality of sawdust in there!

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a better photo, with better detail.

Just the kind of place you’d pop into for evening cocktails Barn

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well, it's not a theory I think is worthy of much discussion but it seems to originate from some detectives who worked on the case at the time. From what I have gleaned from this site, I think the theory that McInnes/BJ were two different people is limited to the Helen Puttock murder.

Like you, I think witness evidence clearly links Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock to having been escorted home by the same person. For this person to have been 'hijacked' by a serial sex murderer not once, but twice, stretches credulity beyond breaking point.

Yes Cobalt, I agree.

These cases can tempt us down some very narrow illogical alleyways.

We are looking for one killer of three women, and the man in the taxi with Helen Puttock was her killer, and he was Bible John.

[barnflatwyngarde]

This is a better photo, with better detail.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I attach a photo of "Traders Tavern" in Kent Streret Glasgow, where Helen Puttock, Jeannie Langford and two friends had a few drinks before going to the Barrowland on the evening of Thursday 30th October 1969.

The Barrowland ballroom is 130 yards away, past the two red cars on the right hand side, and thirty yards right at the end of the street.