Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Amazing!

Thanks so much for that veritable smorgasbord of information, Barn.

That's much appreciated.

I will certainly check out the Mitchell's Glasgow Room and also the links to the SMT sites that you've kindly included.

I'd thought about the Transport Museum myself.

It's a long time since I've been there, but I seem to remember it was quite an interesting way to spend a rainy afternoon.

Thanks again for your help.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Ms D, you might also want to try Glasgow Riverside Museum of Transport.

https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/museums/venues/riverside-museum

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here's a question for you Barn in your capacity as our local library expert;

I'm trying to find some Glasgow Corporation bus timetables from 1969 (just an idea I'm playing around with).

Do you think the Mitchell would have anything like this?

I found ones online for 1967 and 1970, but you have to pay for them, and I'm not convinced they would contain all the details I'm looking for so don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

Hi Ms D, I would suggest that you make the Mitchell Library your first port of call, specifically the Glasgow Room.

I never worked in the Glasgow Room, I was in the Arts Department, but their collection of all things Glaswegian is comprehensive.

https://libcat.csglasgow.org/web/arena/glasgow-collection

If you have no luck there, I would suggest checking Glasgow Archives, also based in the Mitchell Library.

https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/venues/the-mitchell-library/city-archives

You can phone the Mitchell with any enquiries, they still get a high percentage of enquiries via the phone.

You can also try the National Library of Scotland

https://www.nls.uk/

I also include a link to a site on the history of the SMT Bus Company, and a link to a route map that covers Stonehouse.

http://www.centralsmt.co.uk/default.html

http://www.centralsmt.co.uk/Routes/Territory.html

My recollection is that Glasgow and Greater Glasgow were covered by Corporation buses, the yellow and green ones.
Beyond Glasgow was covered, in my area a least, by the SMT buses, the red ones.

I hope some of this helps, good luck!

[cobalt]

Ms D,

Great minds think alike, but fools....

The last bus from Glasgow to Stonehouse area was something that I had considered myself. Maybe at weekends there was a later service. I estimated that the last bus would be nearer to 11 o'clock than midnight (remember Scottish bars closed at 10pm in these days) but maybe Friday and Saturday would be later due to dance halls closing at 12 o'clock.

The ferry crossing theory considered by the police remains explained. Maybe it was part of their mindset: the Peter Manuel killing of the Watt family circa 1956 was originally pinned on the husband who it was claimed had been seen crossing the Yoker/Renfrew ferry with his car. The ferry witness then became a little hesitant and Watt was released. If Watt had returned to kill his family and driven back to his holiday retreat the ferry would not have been the fastest route anyway, over and above the problem of being remembered in the early hours of the morning. Yet for two months Watt was held in Barlinnie Prison on this theory.

I don't think data protection existed as a problem in 1969. The senior police detectives were certainly on a mission when they descended on Hamilton police station but whether that mission was accomplished or aborted we don't know. I think the latter, probably on the basis of an apparently cast iron alibi being presented.

[Ms Diddles]

I’m the same tbh. I can’t see them protecting a serial killer so maybe they didn’t think that he was guilty but they still wanted to keep his name out of it? It’s clear that we need more info though.

This is awfully vague and I haven't really thought it through, but it occurred to me they could be covering up something but nothing as significant as McInnes' guilt.

Some stupid mistake or data breach by one of the senior officers, some crucial missed opportunity, I don't know.

You're right that there are signs of something fishy going on, but I just don't believe that they would let a guy who had murdered three women (and could kill again) walk, simply because his cousin was a senior officer and pal of Joe Beattie.

With all the media interest and careers to be made or broken by the outcome.

That just doesn't add up to me.

[Ms Diddles]

I'll check it out Ms D and get back to you.
Are you checking out the number 6 timetable perchance?

Errrrrrm! I hadn't got as far as identifying particular service numbers!

I'm just a bit intrigued as to why the police had such a bee in their bonnet about BJ making for the southside / Govan.

I thought it would be interesting if there was an early morning service from the Govan depot heading out Stonehouse / Strathaven way.

It wouldn't prove anything of course, but would be of interest nonetheless.

Thanks for your help.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here's a question for you Barn in your capacity as our local library expert;

I'm trying to find some Glasgow Corporation bus timetables from 1969 (just an idea I'm playing around with).

Do you think the Mitchell would have anything like this?

I found ones online for 1967 and 1970, but you have to pay for them, and I'm not convinced they would contain all the details I'm looking for so don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

I'll check it out Ms D and get back to you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It definitely looks like there's something going on here.

There's a big part of the jigsaw missing.

I'm just a little resistant to the idea of a cover-up to protect McInnes' cousin for the reasons stated previously.

I haven't had chance to re-listen to the podcasts yet, but really need to do that, as I remember it goes into some detail about a possible cover-up.

Perhaps it will all make a bit more sense after that.

I’m the same tbh. I can’t see them protecting a serial killer so maybe they didn’t think that he was guilty but they still wanted to keep his name out of it? It’s clear that we need more info though.

[Ms Diddles]

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

Here's a question for you Barn in your capacity as our local library expert;

I'm trying to find some Glasgow Corporation bus timetables from 1969 (just an idea I'm playing around with).

Do you think the Mitchell would have anything like this?

I found ones online for 1967 and 1970, but you have to pay for them, and I'm not convinced they would contain all the details I'm looking for so don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

[Ms Diddles]

“That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

Even if he suggested an alibi, and even if it was backed up they would still have wanted Jean to see him. How could this have been avoided without causing huge suspicion? And if it did then Jean must have rejected him. Yet the CC detectives suggest that Jean might not have seen him. If so, it’s a cover-up.

It definitely looks like there's something going on here.

There's a big part of the jigsaw missing.

I'm just a little resistant to the idea of a cover-up to protect McInnes' cousin for the reasons stated previously.

I haven't had chance to re-listen to the podcasts yet, but really need to do that, as I remember it goes into some detail about a possible cover-up.

Perhaps it will all make a bit more sense after that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

Cheers Barn. I’ll give it a try the next time I get to the library.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I’ve just ordered the Samson and Crow book Barn which I thought was unavailable for some reason. I’m not paying £65 for the Stoddart book though. I’ll wait til a cheaper copy becomes available.

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

[New Waterloo]

Yes agree with everybody regarding the strange attendance of such senior officers at Hamilton Police Station. It is most unusual for there to be one Superintendent let alone two!

I do think that as far as ruling out McInnes as BJ. Perhaps (although we may not like it) his teeth didn't match witness descriptions or the possible possible bite marks. (remember he had his own teeth then) Perhaps this group of four officers at that point in time were the only high level individuals who had knowledge of any bite marks and wanted to have a discreet look without arousing suspicion and tipping off any other offender of the trail they were following.

Another thought is that if McInnes cried help and his Chief Inspector relative appeared at Hamilton and became involved in talking with the investigators I believe it is procedurally correct or etiquette that in a serious investigation he would have to have been spoken to by an officer of the same rank or above. (Might be wrong but I think that is the case) So they arranged a high level team.

I think I am grasping at straws but a couple of ideas.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I agree that it's strange.

The fact that they brought out the Big Guns implies that rightly or wrongly, they really thought they were onto something.

Could it have been something that the Moylans manager said in relation to McInnes that got their antennae pinging?

If so though, that would seem to contradict the idea that Mickey Moylan couldn't recall McInnes being mentioned.

It could have been something he said but you could also have been right about the description. So it might have been a case of…they find a Moylan’s card at the scene then they talk to various people at and find that McInnes is a dead ringer for the description given by Jean. Maybe someone tells them that he’d mentioned the Barrowland? Or that he’d expressed certain opinions about the married women that frequented the place. Any detective would have felt that they were on the right track.

To quote Cobalt though:

“That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

Even if he suggested an alibi, and even if it was backed up they would still have wanted Jean to see him. How could this have been avoided without causing huge suspicion? And if it did then Jean must have rejected him. Yet the CC detectives suggest that Jean might not have seen him. If so, it’s a cover-up.

[barnflatwyngarde]

That's a great (and extremely atmospheric) documentary, Barn.

I've never seen it before.

Thanks for posting.

I noticed among all the evidence files, there was one entitled "Hair Pieces".

Was there some speculation that BJ wore a wig?

I'm just curious as I'd never heard this before!

I have no idea why they would be interested in hair piece suppliers Ms D.

My understanding is that witnesses were consistent in their description of his hair colour and style.
They did interview lots of barbers re Bible John's hair style, so the "hair piece suppliers" thing will probably remain a mystery.

I also noticed a box file headed "John at Glasgow Night School".
Did they think that his erudition leaned toward him pursuing night classes, bearing mind that he told Jeannie and Helen that he was in full time employment?

So many things we just don't know, and a lot of what we do know doesn't quite make sense.