Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

The transcript is a bit unclear Ms D. John mentioned being ‘agnostic’ but this was only after Jean asked him which football team he supported. He meant that he didn’t support any team. Then Jean said:

“I told him we were catholics. I was there, you know, the yapping. That bit that happened about the Bible, he came away with a crack. I said, I should know that, we’re catholics. That was the only thing that he quoted. And I don’t know whether it was just because we were talking about religion.”

Then:

”Where the hell did they get the name Bible John? If we hadn’t been talking about religion and football, that wouldn’t have come up. All I got was something about stoned at the fountain. It was a passage from the Bible. I was brought up a Catholic and I recognised it, but it was because we were talking about religion and football at the time. He did say they places were dens of iniquity or something to that effect.”

So she’s a little unclear. He used the word ‘agnostic’ which is usually used in terms of religion. He uses ‘dens of iniquity’ but the nearest the Bible gets is a ‘den of thieves.’ And ‘stoned at the fountain’ isn’t mentioned in the Bible but a ‘fountain’ is, and so is ‘stoning.’

I often wonder if Detective Joe Jackson might have been right. He recalled Jean talking to a fellow detective on the Friday morning and admitting that she wouldn’t be much help because “I had a bucketful last night.”

[Ms Diddles]

I’ve just looked into the phrase ‘stoned at the fountain,’ which Jean said that John used. I can’t find anything like it in the Bible. Stoning is named as a punishment for fornication, adultery etc but I have found the word ‘fountain’ being used - this is the King James Version:

“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

Another version is from the English Standard Version:

“If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people.“


So in biblical terms the word ‘fountain’ refers to menstruation. So do we have Bible John actually referring menstruation and punishment?

Interesting Herlock!

Did Jean give any context to this "stoned at the fountain" comment?

I'm just thinking that such a phrase would be quite consistent with the "You know what happens to the adulterous woman? She gets stoned to death" quote.

You know, it sounds biblical but is not an accurate representation of what the bible actually says....

Edit: Just contemplating all this taxi chat and as we say here, his patter was mince!!!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just looked into the phrase ‘stoned at the fountain,’ which Jean said that John used. I can’t find anything like it in the Bible. Stoning is named as a punishment for fornication, adultery etc but I have found the word ‘fountain’ being used - this is the King James Version:

“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

Another version is from the English Standard Version:

“If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people.“


So in biblical terms the word ‘fountain’ refers to menstruation. So do we have Bible John actually referring menstruation and punishment?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The taxi route remains a puzzle to me. At present day prices it cost around £21 but should have been a bit less than that. Dropping off Jeannie first must have added a fair bit as that added an unnecessary 2 miles (?) to the trip since the taxi had to turn back from Kelso Street to Earl Street along Dumbarton Road. The taxi was effectively doubling back on itself. Presumably BJ was playing the role of the philanthropist so the women were not unduly concerned by this circuitous route, given he was footing the bill.

However this illogical route would have required some explanation from BJ. If he held hopes of a sexual congress with Helen then both she and Jeannie would surely have picked that up, albeit he could hardly have announced his intentions. Both women knew it could amount to nothing anyway given Helen's domestic arrangements. So at best they maybe figured he was on a fool's errand. Were they playing him for a bit of a straight laced mug?

Or could hard cash have lain behind BJ's pretext for the route? That is to say, he intimated that he lived in the same vicinity as Helen so he had decided to drop her off last, then make his own way home by the taxi and square up the bill as a gentleman would. Better that than leave Jeannie with some of the taxi fare when she was dropped off on her own?

As it turned out, it seems he misjudged the fare and probably Helen's intentions as well. I don't have the psychological knowledge to know which was likely the main factor in his murderous attack on her.

I just checked the transcript Cobalt:

’Jean then asked if the man was going their way and Helen replied, he’s going the other way and nodded her head.’

and..

’I thought he was paying the taxi because he lived that way. He pointed to the other side. I thought he had maybe he’d stayed in Clydebank or that.’

So they were aware that they were heading in the opposite direction to where John lived.

[cobalt]

The taxi route remains a puzzle to me. At present day prices it cost around £21 but should have been a bit less than that. Dropping off Jeannie first must have added a fair bit as that added an unnecessary 2 miles (?) to the trip since the taxi had to turn back from Kelso Street to Earl Street along Dumbarton Road. The taxi was effectively doubling back on itself. Presumably BJ was playing the role of the philanthropist so the women were not unduly concerned by this circuitous route, given he was footing the bill.

However this illogical route would have required some explanation from BJ. If he held hopes of a sexual congress with Helen then both she and Jeannie would surely have picked that up, albeit he could hardly have announced his intentions. Both women knew it could amount to nothing anyway given Helen's domestic arrangements. So at best they maybe figured he was on a fool's errand. Were they playing him for a bit of a straight laced mug?

Or could hard cash have lain behind BJ's pretext for the route? That is to say, he intimated that he lived in the same vicinity as Helen so he had decided to drop her off last, then make his own way home by the taxi and square up the bill as a gentleman would. Better that than leave Jeannie with some of the taxi fare when she was dropped off on her own?

As it turned out, it seems he misjudged the fare and probably Helen's intentions as well. I don't have the psychological knowledge to know which was likely the main factor in his murderous attack on her.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock, I'll check it out tomorrow.
Spent a couple of hours today putting my notes on the podcast episodes on to the pc.
There's loads of great stuff there.
I'm looking forward to pulling all the notes from the books and the podcast together.
I think it'll be fascinating to all the disparate facts and speculations pulled together in a, hopefully, coherent way.

It’s a pity that copy and paste isn’t available but I’ve started a time consuming and boring plan. I’m screenshotting the transcripts and putting them in folders - one page having multiple screenshots on. As you know, I don’t do tech but let me know if you want them. I think that I’ll be able to email them as a pdf. I’ve sent stuff in that form to Howard Brown in the past so it should work.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Herlock, I'll check it out tomorrow.
Spent a couple of hours today putting my notes on the podcast episodes on to the pc.
There's loads of great stuff there.
I'm looking forward to pulling all the notes from the books and the podcast together.
I think it'll be fascinating to all the disparate facts and speculations pulled together in a, hopefully, coherent way.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good stuff Herlock, I never noticed that.
Where the hell is it?
Could you attach a link to the transcript?

Not the transcript itself but this is the previous page…hopefully.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/bible-john-creation-of-a-serial-killer/id1647562975?i=1000583919476

Then you click on Transcript. It won’t let you copy and paste though.

[barnflatwyngarde]

How unobservant have I been that I’ve only just noticed that each episode of the podcast comes with a transcript! Unfortunately though you can’t copy and paste it. If we could do that then there would have been no need to take notes.

Good stuff Herlock, I never noticed that.
Where the hell is it?
Could you attach a link to the transcript?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How unobservant have I been that I’ve only just noticed that each episode of the podcast comes with a transcript! Unfortunately though you can’t copy and paste it. If we could do that then there would have been no need to take notes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did any witnesses who saw the man with Jemima McDonald, the second victim, mention such a tie?

It’s a part read by an actor describing the police report and it says that the man was ‘not further described.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, IIRC that was after BJ had agreed to pay for the taxi when they were leaving the Barrowlands.

I wonder if this is what lead to the altercation which Hannah said he saw.

It's quite a long way from the Barrowlands to Kelso St then back to Earl St, so the fare is a not inconsiderable one and I imagine Helen would be miffed if she thought she was onto a freebie but had to stump up.

It’s why Jean ended up trying to buy cigarettes in the Barrowland. George Puttock had given her the taxi money so that Helen wouldn’t spend it resulting in them having to walk home and when Helen told Jean that they didn’t need to pay for a taxi because John was picking up the bill Jean decided to spend the money on a packet of cigarettes (which didn’t work out of course)

[Ms Diddles]

Another interesting point is that it looks like BJ had to get the money for the taxi from Helen. Hannah said that he saw her look into her bag and give the guy some money which he handed over to him as payment - £1 6d.

Yes, IIRC that was after BJ had agreed to pay for the taxi when they were leaving the Barrowlands.

I wonder if this is what lead to the altercation which Hannah said he saw.

It's quite a long way from the Barrowlands to Kelso St then back to Earl St, so the fare is a not inconsiderable one and I imagine Helen would be miffed if she thought she was onto a freebie but had to stump up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another interesting point is that it looks like BJ had to get the money for the taxi from Helen. Hannah said that he saw her look into her bag and give the guy some money which he handed over to him as payment - £1 6d.

[cobalt]

The taxi route looks like driver error to me, which he managed to rectify at the next available turning. Driving at night means you can't pick out landmarks so easily and Helen herself might not have noticed the error straight away. As for Helen exiting 100 yards from her home, we can but guess. I know passengers sometimes become anxious when they see the meter ticking over and ask to be dropped off a little early to save money. Maybe BJ, who comes across as a bit tight fisted, was moaning about the fare and Helen decided to get out early.

The regimental tie is an interesting detail: we would really need to know from McInnes' associates if that was a feature of his being dressed up for a night out. Was McInnes actually seen wearing it in the late 1960s, almost a decade after he had left the Scots Guards? There was no great cachet in wearing military insignia at that time, in fact popular culture often satirised the concept of military service. A regimental tie seems an odd choice for a night out at the Barrowland, although it's possible McInnes had attended the furniture show earlier in the day. Did any witnesses who saw the man with Jemima McDonald, the second victim, mention such a tie?